Is it that hard to get the 430 database updated on time?

Van Johnston

Van Johnston

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Van Johnston
Today was supposed to be my mock checkride. Perfect conditions, with a 500' thick layer at 700' ceiling. But it is March 7...the database in the 430 is expired, so we had to cancel. I'm frustrated. My instructor did not make money. The FBO did not make money. This is not the first time this has happened, but the first time we have had to cancel out right. Is it that hard for an FBO to be on top of their game enough to get the cards updated before they expire? Isn't each new database released a few days ahead of time? Just venting....

(I'll accept a little culpability. I picked these guys because they were the cheapest ones in town. I'm getting what I paid for.)
 
It takes approx 20 seconds to do, why not just have them do it on the spot?
 
EdFred said:
Takes my cards a lot longer than 20 seconds to get programmed.
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I have an old laptop dedicated to the task, it doesn't take very long, sub 60 seconds. Anything longer than that, I'd be whining.
 
It takes me about 15 min per card.

The real problem for any one managing a fleet is that it can take hours if you have 15 - 20 planes. You really have to have multiple computers. And if you don't have extra cards (which run $160 each) you have to run back and forth to each plane twice. And it all has to happen at once unless you invest in an extra set of card(s) per plane so that you can do there programming ahead of time. Which I guess most FBO's/flying clubs do not do.


Alan
 
I don't think there is a valid reason for a data base to not be current. I have a laptop that is less than 1 year old and use cable internet at the hangar. Will not happen in 60 seconds. The old data has to be erased, then the new data installed and then the card checked. The three steps will take 5-7 minutes for each card once you are logged in to JSUM. My DSL at home takes close to 10 minutes.
 
alang said:
It takes me about 15 min per card.

The real problem for any one managing a fleet is that it can take hours if you have 15 - 20 planes. You really have to have multiple computers. And if you don't have extra cards (which run $160 each) you have to run back and forth to each plane twice. And it all has to happen at once unless you invest in an extra set of card(s) per plane so that you can do there programming ahead of time. Which I guess most FBO's/flying clubs do not do.


Alan
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My card writer is new, maybe that's the difference? From plugging the card in, to removing it, it's never been over 60 seconds. I have a subscription for the entire US. I have wifi in the hangar and just carry my laptop to the plane and do it as part of a preflight.
 
bartmc said:
My card writer is new, maybe that's the difference? From plugging the card in, to removing it, it's never been over 60 seconds. I have a subscription for the entire US. I have wifi in the hangar and just carry my laptop to the plane and do it as part of a preflight.
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You are right about the time now that I think about it. I recently got a new writer from Jepp as part of the Mac beta program. It does go much faster.

The fleet issue management is still an issue but a faster writer sure helps.

Alan
 
why not just take a few minutes to verify the waypoints you need and then go fly ? You don't need a current database to fly ifr, it just makes it easier.
 
My FBO does it when they do all their gps aircraft, they also do my MX20 at the same time. Never had an issue.. I think its partially your responsibility to stay on top of it, especially if it needs to be legal. This includes renting. But it should have taken all of 10 minutes max for you to pop it out, take it inside and get it back in.
 
It can be a PITA. Especially when you don't fly that often. Or when you have 2 units and only 1 subscription.
 
Jeff, technically you are correct. But to check every detail of the approaches to be flown on a check ride will take longer than a simple update. I just can't see a valid reason for non current data.
If they have improved the Skybound units that much it would be great. It does appear that is where the choke point is in the up date process. Mine is about 4-5 years old, so that could be the difference.
 
ronnieh said:
Jeff, technically you are correct. But to check every detail of the approaches to be flown on a check ride will take longer than a simple update. I just can't see a valid reason for non current data.
If they have improved the Skybound units that much it would be great. It does appear that is where the choke point is in the up date process. Mine is about 4-5 years old, so that could be the difference.
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According to a recent Cap'n Ron post, a current DB is REQUIRED for a checkride. I have no reason to believe he was incorrect.
 
he said it was a MOCK checkride

ronnieh said:
Jeff, technically you are correct. But to check every detail of the approaches to be flown on a check ride will take longer than a simple update. I just can't see a valid reason for non current data.
If they have improved the Skybound units that much it would be great. It does appear that is where the choke point is in the up date process. Mine is about 4-5 years old, so that could be the difference.
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60 sec, 15 min...I still don't understand why the OP didn't ask the FBO to update the card right then? Same as finding the rental plane doesn't have the full fuel you asked for. Stuff happens. Deal with it. Why'd everybody have to give up and go home?
 
When did you inform the FBO the card was set to expire? When I was renting I took it upon myself to inform the FBO of anything needed from a mx or update standpoint. Not being critical of you, just wondering if there was a discussion.
 
When the FBO updates these cards it is on the order of double digit minutes, not seconds. My instructor was booked back-to-back and said we could not get the card updated and do the planned ride and get back in time.

We talked about options to go without the updated card. We decided we could take off and do the VOR and ILS approaches at the other other airport, but the only way to get home was with a GPS approach. My understanding is you can fly en route with an expired database, but not terminal and approaches.

The databases expire every 28 days. It is predictable and can be scheduled. I check that annuals and 100 hour inspections are done, but I don't schedule them for the FBO. If I am a business owner and my revenue stream depends on my assets being available to produce revenue, I would do reasonable things to keep them running. In a case like yesterday, he lost his PPL students due to weather, which he can't control. But he also lost his instrument student, and that was easily avoidable.

We did do an hour of ground, so it was not a total loss as far as progressing toward the checkride goes.

But everyone did answer my original question...no, it is not that hard.
 
you can fly approaches too, there are just a lot more waypoints to verify. Of course, you can use the approach plate revision date to catch several at a time.

Not necessarily helpful in getting your checkride done, more a comment geared toward the difference between training and real life.
 
As the applicant, you are responsible to know that the IR PTS says the database must be current in any installed IFR GPS for thee practical test. While it's the FBO's responsibility to do the work in their aircraft, if I were coming up on a practical test on changeover day, I think I'd be bugging the FBO a day or two before to make sure it was done.
 
bartmc said:
According to a recent Cap'n Ron post, a current DB is REQUIRED for a checkride. I have no reason to believe he was incorrect.
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...and if you read the IR PTS, you'll see it in official FAA writing on page 7.
GPS equipment must be instrument flight rules (IFR)
certified and contain the current database.
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JHW said:
he said it was a MOCK checkride
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I misssed that, too. In that case, there was no reason not to fly the ride because unless that GPS's AFM has a prohibition IFR with an expired database, there are procedures published in the AIM for flying IFR legally with an expired database.
 
Ron Levy said:
...there are procedures published in the AIM for flying IFR legally with an expired database.
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Is the procedure note 3 of Table 1-1-6?

"3Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database."

And you verify the procedure has not been amended by looking at the amendment number and date at the bottom of the current paper chart (which I did have)?
 
Van Johnston said:
Is the procedure note 3 of Table 1-1-6?

"3Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database."

And you verify the procedure has not been amended by looking at the amendment number and date at the bottom of the current paper chart (which I did have)?
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Exactly. Now, why didn't your instrument instructor know that and teach it to you? :nonod:
 
Ron Levy said:
Exactly. Now, why didn't your instrument instructor know that and teach it to you? :nonod:
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Probably because his CFII is just there waiting until he gets a call for that right seat job, and he wasn't taught that by *his* CFII who was waiting for that phone call for that right seat job, who wasn't taught that by *his* CFII....
 
Van Johnston said:
Is the procedure note 3 of Table 1-1-6?

"3Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database."

And you verify the procedure has not been amended by looking at the amendment number and date at the bottom of the current paper chart (which I did have)?
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John Collins pointed out in a red board post that the AFMS (aircraft flight manual supplement) of many GPSes does not permit that.

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?p=1575887#post1575887

Originally Posted by beech35
Although the AIM 1-1-19, Table 1-1-6, note 3 permits use of an expired database, as we all know this information is advisory and not regulatory. The limitations in a GPS AFMS are regulatory and must also permit the use of an expired database for an approach. Most of the old Apollo UPS GPS units, the GNS480 (CNX80), and the GNS430W/530W use such wording. Most other GPS units only provided sample wording for the AFMS and typically they required a current database. Examples of such AFMS samples include the GNS430/530, all the earlier Garmin units, and the Honeywell Bendix King units. Someone familiar with the issue could have modified the wording for these units and gotten it approved by the FAA, but these situations are far and few between. The point is, if your AFMS permits it, you can use an expired database as described, but if your AFMS doesn't approve it, you may not. You always have the possibility of submitting the AFMS to the FAA with the later wording and getting it approved, which is not a big deal in my opinion.

The GNS430W/530W AFMS permitted the use of an expired database before the AIM was updated and in the same way the vast majority of the GNS430/530 AFMS do not. Remember, the AFMS Limitations are regulatory and the AIM is not.
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Now that the FAA no longer requires logging of GPS database updates if special tools aren't required, I've toyed with the idea of having my own datacard for the GNS-430, for trips on which I want to fly a rental plane whose owner is not keeping the database current.
 
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