Is it legal

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
to teach primary students with an aircraft equipped only with 1 com, transponder, Mode C, and a hand held GPS or a GPS such as the Garmin 250-XL.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why wouldn't it be?
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61.105 (b) (4) Use of aeronautical charts for VFR navigation using pilotage, dead reckoning, and navigation systems;


61.109(a)(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;


Depends how the FAA defines navigation systems/facilities...
To me that means using an NDB or VOR. Tom's plane was short a NAV box.
 
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You can teach all you want, but when I asked the question of AFS-810 some time back, I was told that you must have an installed nav radio for the Navigation Systems and Radar Services task (Area VII, Task B ) of the PP-Airplane PTS -- handhelds won't do (unless they're parked in an installed docking station like many LSA's have). It can be VOR, GPS (VFR is fine, since you're not operating IFR), or ADF, but you must have some kind of a nav radio installed. So, the Garmin 250 would suffice, but a loose handheld would not. However, I've also heard some DPE's say that a handheld will suffice, so you may get lucky. Either way, you have to train and certify proficiency in basic radio nav (position location, interception and tracking of courses) before you endorse a trainee for a PP-A practical test.
 
He DID say Garmin 250-XL. That is an installed unit. Seems like that would make it good to go.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can teach all you want, but when I asked the question of AFS-810 some time back, I was told that you must have an installed nav radio for the Navigation Systems and Radar Services task (Area VII, Task B ) of the PP-Airplane PTS -- handhelds won't do (unless they're parked in an installed docking station like many LSA's have). It can be VOR, GPS (VFR is fine, since you're not operating IFR), or ADF, but you must have some kind of a nav radio installed. So, the Garmin 250 would suffice, but a loose handheld would not. However, I've also heard some DPE's say that a handheld will suffice, so you may get lucky. Either way, you have to train and certify proficiency in basic radio nav (position location, interception and tracking of courses) before you endorse a trainee for a PP-A practical test.
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So how do you take a private check ride in a J-3 or Champ, no electrical power, no radio, no VOR.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can teach all you want, but when I asked the question of AFS-810 some time back, I was told that you must have an installed nav radio for the Navigation Systems and Radar Services task (Area VII, Task B ) of the PP-Airplane PTS -- handhelds won't do (unless they're parked in an installed docking station like many LSA's have). It can be VOR, GPS (VFR is fine, since you're not operating IFR), or ADF, but you must have some kind of a nav radio installed. So, the Garmin 250 would suffice,

I'm good so far, but wouldn't the GPS be required to have a up to date database? (the 250XL is no longer being manufactured or updated.

but a loose handheld would not. However, I've also heard some DPE's say that a handheld will suffice, so you may get lucky. Either way, you have to train and certify proficiency in basic radio nav (position location, interception and tracking of courses) before you endorse a trainee for a PP-A practical test.
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can that be done with a GPS that is not IFR certified ?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I am not understanding the context of the question.
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Will the lessor / cheaper non certified GPSs give the data required to do the training as Ron stated

" you have to train and certify proficiency in basic radio nav (position location, interception and tracking of courses) before you endorse a trainee for a PP-A practical test."

I know I can find my position with one, you can see the course line, but I have never tried to intercept a radial of a VOR with a GPS.

I don't know if it can be done.

could the Garmin 250XL do all of the required tasks in the PTS?
 
I don't see anything in the PTS that would preclude it. Pages 7, 1-24, 1-25 and 1-26 are the relevant pages.

As long as the unit can accomplish those areas, it should be OK. I think the Garmin 250-XL will do that nicely.
 
Tom-D said:
Will the lessor / cheaper non certified GPSs give the data required to do the training as Ron stated
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I know of no installable GPS that won't.
" you have to train and certify proficiency in basic radio nav (position location, interception and tracking of courses) before you endorse a trainee for a PP-A practical test."

I know I can find my position with one, you can see the course line, but I have never tried to intercept a radial of a VOR with a GPS.
I don't know if it can be done.
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Provide the opportunity and the pay, and I'll teach you how.

could the Garmin 250XL do all of the required tasks in the PTS?
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Yes, it can.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
He DID say Garmin 250-XL. That is an installed unit. Seems like that would make it good to go.
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Actually, he said, "...a hand held GPS or a GPS such as the Garmin 250-XL." The installed 250 would do, but I've been told a loose handheld will not.
 
Ron Levy said:
I know of no installable GPS that won't.
Provide the opportunity and the pay, and I'll teach you how.

Yes, it can.
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And that is why I ask the CFI's about CFI things.

I'm not interested in providing you a vacation, but thanks for the offer.
 
gprellwitz said:
Timely question. I was asked about this just last week!
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I asked now because I have a customer who just bought a C-150 to teach in, and now has found he will not pass his next Medical. and would like my advice on what to do with his C-150.

there are two students that are interested in buying it, but need an aircraft they can spend the least amount of money to get ready to take the PPL practical.

I hate to see them spend money on equipment they won't use later (after the PPL test) the 250XL would be a great option but if Garmin isn't going to support it we may go to some thing different.
 
Tom-D said:
I asked now because I have a customer who just bought a C-150 to teach in, and now has found he will not pass his next Medical. and would like my advice on what to do with his C-150.

there are two students that are interested in buying it, but need an aircraft they can spend the least amount of money to get ready to take the PPL practical.

I hate to see them spend money on equipment they won't use later (after the PPL test) the 250XL would be a great option but if Garmin isn't going to support it we may go to some thing different.
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they can do the 3 hours in a sim if I'm not mistaken, and they can do the checkride in a plane with a vor. won't cost more than maybe 500 a piece(asuming they have to both rent those 3 hours and the checkride), which is a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a NAV for the 150
 
Tom-D said:
I asked now because I have a customer who just bought a C-150 to teach in, and now has found he will not pass his next Medical. and would like my advice on what to do with his C-150.

there are two students that are interested in buying it, but need an aircraft they can spend the least amount of money to get ready to take the PPL practical.

I hate to see them spend money on equipment they won't use later (after the PPL test) the 250XL would be a great option but if Garmin isn't going to support it we may go to some thing different.
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Well, you could go the route that some folks take for their commercial, and ask the examiner if you could use two aircraft for the checkride. Do the three hours of instrument in a 172 and teach 'em to land it, then take the rest in the plane they are familiar with. Not that I like that idea at all...
I've been looking at this same question, because if things really went well for a year or so, I'd be looking to get a taildragger that I could use all the way through primary. The big thing is that it has to have enough instruments to do something like unusual attitudes OK, and be able to show that a student can do navigation by means of an electronic navigation system. Personally, I think one Nav/Comm with a VOR is probably the cheapest option, although a GPS would be nice. However, the VOR could be supplemented with a handheld GPS for stuff past the checkride, so there would be little need to spent the extra money.

Ryan
 
EdFred said:
61.105 (b) (4) Use of aeronautical charts for VFR navigation using pilotage, dead reckoning, and navigation systems;


61.109(a)(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;


Depends how the FAA defines navigation systems/facilities...
To me that means using an NDB or VOR. Tom's plane was short a NAV box.
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That's ok. No one says you won't need something for specific tasks. But I read the question more in the light of "is it legal to do commercial training in a simple airplane." Same answer. Of course it it but you may need to grab another airplane for certain tasks.
 
elmetal said:
they can do the 3 hours in a sim if I'm not mistaken
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No more than 2.5 hours of the required flight time for PP-Airplane may be done in a flight simulation device. In addition, it would take a very bold instructor to send someone off for the PP-Airplane test without having done any radio nav work in a real airplane with the same nav gear as will be used on the test.

, and they can do the checkride in a plane with a vor.
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I don't recommend doing all your training in one plane and then the checkride in another unless the other is the same make/model. In any event, the Garmin 250 will suffice for this requirement.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Well, you could go the route that some folks take for their commercial, and ask the examiner if you could use two aircraft for the checkride. Do the three hours of instrument in a 172 and teach 'em to land it, then take the rest in the plane they are familiar with. Not that I like that idea at all...
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Me, neither, especially since the examiner has the option to ask the applicant anything about either airplane provided for the test.
 
Tom-D said:
to teach primary students with an aircraft equipped only with 1 com, transponder, Mode C, and a hand held GPS or a GPS such as the Garmin 250-XL.
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Yes... But using ONLY that aircraft you wont be able to complete all instructional requirements.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't recommend doing all your training in one plane and then the checkride in another unless the other is the same make/model. In any event, the Garmin 250 will suffice for this requirement.
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Since they would be flyign a 150, any 150/152 out there would suffice for the checkride. It's not like they are training in a cessna 140 and taking a checkride in a 182

but yes I agree with the sim and VOR combo which is why I factored in that this 3 hours of training would be on the aircraft with the VOR (Rental) Which is why I budgeted 500 a piece (for say 3 hours training 1.5 checkride)
 
Idiotic. Most of the VORs around here are in disrepair, and they'll scrap the whole system with the implementation of Next Gen if not before. My aircraft doesn't have on and I don't particularly miss it for VFR.
 
Tom-D said:
I asked now because I have a customer who just bought a C-150 to teach in, and now has found he will not pass his next Medical. and would like my advice on what to do with his C-150.

there are two students that are interested in buying it, but need an aircraft they can spend the least amount of money to get ready to take the PPL practical.

I hate to see them spend money on equipment they won't use later (after the PPL test) the 250XL would be a great option but if Garmin isn't going to support it we may go to some thing different.
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My gut feeling is...... I would sit on the 150... There is a better then not chance the 150 will be rolled into the LSA catagory in the future. IMHO.:idea:
 
elmetal said:
Since they would be flyign a 150, any 150/152 out there would suffice for the checkride.
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Any 150, yes, but there are enough differences between a 150 and a 152 that it could trip up a Student Pilot taking a PP-A ride.

but yes I agree with the sim and VOR combo which is why I factored in that this 3 hours of training would be on the aircraft with the VOR (Rental) Which is why I budgeted 500 a piece (for say 3 hours training 1.5 checkride)
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Well, fine if you want, but if there's a 250XL in it already, there's no need for that.
 
Doggtyred said:
Yes... But using ONLY that aircraft you wont be able to complete all instructional requirements.
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Actually, I'm quite sure I could do all the instructional requirements with a handheld, but I was told by AFS-810 that it would have to be installed for the practical test. And if it's the 250XL, it's good to go for both.
 
I'd say find the DPE that the student is going to be referred to and make sure they are comfortable doing the checkride in the plane in question. Not all DPEs interpret things the same.
 
Ron,

How do you tune and identify a VOR on the 250XL?

I seem to remember having to do such a thing in primary training. Sure you can D-> or OBS it, but that's not exactly using a facility.
 
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I took my checkride in an aircraft with an inoperable vor and the only gyro instrument was the turn and bank. Unusual attitude recovery and instrument work was done with airspeed ball and compass. I had to demonstrate for the examiner how to run the vor radio even though it didn't work. The test was on my ability rather than the aircrafts and if I could show competence he was happy. I think the key to the whole situation is the attitude of the local FAA bunch and the examiner.

Good luck
Frank
 
Ron Levy said:
Any 150, yes, but there are enough differences between a 150 and a 152 that it could trip up a Student Pilot taking a PP-A ride.
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I've never flown either. Can you explain a little on that?

Ron Levy said:
Well, fine if you want, but if there's a 250XL in it already, there's no need for that.
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I just deleted the .pdfs of the 250XL and 350XL that I had. I read it over a couple times, but I'm not 100% if it tunes the VOR or uses the GPSs database for reference.

FWIW- the OP can d/l manuals from the Garmin site for free.
 
EdFred said:
Ron,

How do you tune and identify a VOR on the 250XL?
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You can tune it by going direct to. You can identify it by reading the screen as to what you are flying direct to. :)
 
jesse said:
You can tune it by going direct to. You can identify it by reading the screen as to what you are flying direct to. :)
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and the upside is that it's never out of service!
 
elmetal said:
and the upside is that it's never out of service!
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We're entering a period of increased solar flare activity. Depending on who you listen to, these solar events can affect GPS accuracy or potentially knock it out entirely.
 
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