Is it just me...

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jun 6, 2008
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Jay Honeck
...or are many "airplane for sale" ads written by illiterate clueless goobers with no idea how to actually sell an airplane?

I love the ones with no engine, prop, or total times, no photos, and no email contact info. WTF are these people thinking?

I haven't gone hunting for an airplane in over a decade, and it's obvious that the move to all-digital media hasn't helped as much as we all hoped it would. :rolleyes:
 
Jay Honeck said:
I love the ones with no engine, prop, or total times, no photos, and no email contact info. WTF are these people thinking?
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Not having Internet access and not spending time on even trivial tasks like assembling sales information probably means their only outlet for killing time is actual flying. Should we pity or envy them?
 
Or they're "selling" their airplane because their wife told them to get rid of it. "No, honey, no bites yet. But I have it listed!"
 
1. That's what I have in it.
2. That's what they're selling for on Tradeaplane
3. That's what it's worth to me.
4. I figure it only takes one buyer at my price.

Get used to it.
 
wabower said:
1. That's what I have in it.
2. That's what they're selling for on Tradeaplane
3. That's what it's worth to me.
4. I figure it only takes one buyer at my price.

Get used to it.
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Shoot, I'm not even talking about the often laughable prices. That's a whole 'another thread.

EXAMPLE: I've been emailing a guy about his RV-8A. I feel like I've broken the Enigma codes when I have finally parsed his sentences into something understandable,

I've asked for more photos. He has responded with "call or email me". WTF? I just DID!

And his ad is far from the worst.
 
Jay Honeck said:
...or are many "airplane for sale" ads written by illiterate clueless goobers with no idea how to actually sell an airplane?
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Some of them are. But many of them assume that YOU are (illiterate clueless goobers with no ide how to actually BUY an airplane).

Jay Honeck said:
I love the ones with no engine, prop, or total times, no photos, and no email contact info. WTF are these people thinking?
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I usually just assume there is a reason they don't include that info and that is because they don't want me to know. So I don't spend much time looking at their ads.

Jay Honeck said:
I haven't gone hunting for an airplane in over a decade, and it's obvious that the move to all-digital media hasn't helped as much as we all hoped it would. :rolleyes:
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To err is human. To really foul things up on a grand scale and in a big hurry, use a computer". Digital Media means any idiot can get in front of the same audience a Poet Laureate can.
 
JOhnH said:
I usually just assume there is a reason they don't include that info and that is because they don't want me to know. So I don't spend much time looking at their ads.
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That's the funny thing. I haven't found one yet that would not have benefited by including the info. It's not that they're hiding it -- they're just too ignorant to include it.

I can see that finding a good, solid RV-8 is going to be harder than I thought it would be.
 
Jay Honeck said:
That's the funny thing. I haven't found one yet that would not have benefited by including the info. It's not that they're hiding it -- they're just too ignorant to include it.

I can see that finding a good, solid RV-8 is going to be harder than I thought it would be.
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Interesting on the "harder to find." It would seem like those "selling" who have no communication skills might find it hard to get rid of their airplanes. Thus good airplanes might be available for those with the patience to try to communicate with the difficult to communicate?
 
Warrior said:
Interesting on the "harder to find." It would seem like those "selling" who have no communication skills might find it hard to get rid of their airplanes. Thus good airplanes might be available for those with the patience to try to communicate with the difficult to communicate?
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I'm hopeful that it works out that way, but not terribly optimistic.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I'm hopeful that it works out that way, but not terribly optimistic.
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Just remember; patience pays. What you want is out there. But if you get in a hurry you will accept something that isn't what you really want. (now if only I could have taken my own advice ...) Although I really do love my 172, and more importantly, my wife does too.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I'm hopeful that it works out that way, but not terribly optimistic.
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Put an ad out looking for the plane you want. Then people will contact you, rather than having to deal with 5 tire kickers. Sellers have a tough time separating wheat from chaff and get tired of tire kickers. If you place an ad looking you'll get one on one time with serious sellers.
 
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JOhnH said:
Digital Media means any idiot can get in front of the same audience a Poet Laureate can.
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It was once posited that an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of keyboards would eventually recreate the works of Shakespeare.

Thanks to internet message boards, we now know that this is not the case.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I'm hopeful that it works out that way, but not terribly optimistic.
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Why not post a Want To Buy ad on Vans, assuming they have classifieds. Sometimes you can shake a gem out of the trees through the power of suggestion before it makes it to market.
 
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LDJones said:
Why not post a Want To Buy ad on Vans,....
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That's what I would do. Some RV owner, might know someone who knows somebody that might sell. And an ad on VAF will find them.
 
There's an 8 for sale up here, but you're looking for a "8A" correct? Also I think the asking price may be high.
 
I'm not looking for an airplane, but I was looking for an older Jeep last summer. The ads like the ones you describe, I just passed over them to the next one. The thing was ads that were down right misleading. I drove three hours to look at a 70s era Jeep that the seller forgot to include in the ad, and in our subsequent e-mails back and forth, that it was missing a gas tank among other things. Of course, I found that out in the first minute of looking at it.
 
Hydroguy2 said:
There's an 8 for sale up here, but you're looking for a "8A" correct? Also I think the asking price may be high.
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Yeah, Mary wants the tricycle gear. Since she's giving in on the tandem seating, it's only fair that I give in on the land gear configuration, I suppose. Cheaper insurance, too.

It makes our search twice as hard, since -8As are relatively scarce.

As for prices, some of these sellers are completely lost when it comes to asking price. Ain't no one gonna pay over $100K for a two-seat homebuilt, I don't care WHAT you put in the panel. Yet they're all over TAP and Barnstormers at that price and up.

I understand why they do it, of course. They want to feel that five years worth of hard labor is worth something. Sadly, in the marketplace it just really isn't.

And, there's always the slim chance of running across some rube with that rare combination of gullibility and money. :D
 
JOhnH said:
Just remember; patience pays. What you want is out there. But if you get in a hurry you will accept something that isn't what you really want. (now if only I could have taken my own advice ...) Although I really do love my 172, and more importantly, my wife does too.
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Oh, I know. I've currently got a wonderful plane -- my dream plane, really, when there were four of us at home -- so I am in absolutely no hurry to buy.

The only reason I wasted 5 weeks and the cost of a prebuy on the MN plane was because it literally fell into my lap, and appeared to be a great deal. Sadly, it was not, but in "real life" I've still got need for my back seats for a while longer, anyway. (Our daughter will be flying to OSH with us, as always. This would have made flying a 2-seat RV-8 difficult!)
 
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Jay Honeck said:
I love the ones with no engine, prop, or total times, no photos, and no email contact info. WTF are these people thinking?
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They are thinking that if you really want that airplane, you'll call by telephone. If you don't want it hard enough, they do not want to hear from you, filthy tire-kicker. Please refer to the numerous "hate tire-kickers" threads at Pilots of America forums. You do realize how many airplane owners are self-centered jerks, do you?
 
zaitcev said:
They are thinking that if you really want that airplane, you'll call by telephone. If you don't want it hard enough, they do not want to hear from you, filthy tire-kicker. Please refer to the numerous "hate tire-kickers" threads at Pilots of America forums. You do realize how many airplane owners are self-centered jerks, do you?
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I don't believe they are deliberately omitting essential information in an effort to make us call them. I think they're just ignorant.

Nobody "really wants the airplane" with unknown total time and hours on the engine. Upstream someone suggested that these ads are placed by estates, or by guys who really don't want to sell. This makes more sense than some misguided attempt to weed out tire kickers.

BTW, I've received two responses already to my "RV-8A wanted" ad over at Van's Air Force. I will be calling them later today.
 
Jay Honeck said:
...or are many "airplane for sale" ads written by illiterate clueless goobers with no idea how to actually sell an airplane?

I love the ones with no engine, prop, or total times, no photos, and no email contact info. WTF are these people thinking?

I haven't gone hunting for an airplane in over a decade, and it's obvious that the move to all-digital media hasn't helped as much as we all hoped it would. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

It has probably helped less as it is so easy to do things online that some folks don't bother taking the care or getting the help that they should. And no-one is proof-reading like they would in a print ad.
 
Right now I've got three RV-8As in play. All three contacted me because of my WTB ad.

Despite this, getting answers to questions is like pulling teeth. Requests for additional photos of critical areas (engine compartment, gear to fuse fairing, luggage compartments) are ignored. Emails go unanswered for days. WTF?

If you want to sell an aircraft, there are some very basic, fundamental things to be answered or stated. This holds true whether you're selling a 150, or a Concorde. Omitting these things in your ad or subsequent communications means that no sellers will proceed to the prebuy, because it looks like you're hiding something.

In none of these cases do I think these sellers are deliberately hiding anything. Rather, I truly believe they have simply never bought an airplane themselves before, and are therefore unschooled in what buyers want to know.

Yet another drawback to buying a homebuilt. This is one I never anticipated...
 
Ignorance regarding selling planes knows no bounds. A cousin's kids are shopping for a T-206, found one nearby and asked me to meet them to look and evaluate. I mistakenly assumed that owners seeking to sell $300k airplanes might wash them and sweep the carpet, maybe even apply a little wax prior to a showing. But no, they just pushed back into the hangar after the last trip, bugs and all.

Jay Honeck said:
Right now I've got three RV-8As in play. All three contacted me because of my WTB ad.

Despite this, getting answers to questions is like pulling teeth. Requests for additional photos of critical areas (engine compartment, gear to fuse fairing, luggage compartments) are ignored. Emails go unanswered for days. WTF?

If you want to sell an aircraft, there are some very basic, fundamental things to be answered or stated. This holds true whether you're selling a 150, or a Concorde. Omitting these things in your ad or subsequent communications means that no sellers will proceed to the prebuy, because it looks like you're hiding something.

In none of these cases do I think these sellers are deliberately hiding anything. Rather, I truly believe they have simply never bought an airplane themselves before, and are therefore unschooled in what buyers want to know.

Yet another drawback to buying a homebuilt. This is one I never anticipated...
Click to expand...
 
Jay Honeck said:
Right now I've got three RV-8As in play. All three contacted me because of my WTB ad.

Despite this, getting answers to questions is like pulling teeth. Requests for additional photos of critical areas (engine compartment, gear to fuse fairing, luggage compartments) are ignored. Emails go unanswered for days. WTF?

If you want to sell an aircraft, there are some very basic, fundamental things to be answered or stated. This holds true whether you're selling a 150, or a Concorde. Omitting these things in your ad or subsequent communications means that no sellers will proceed to the prebuy, because it looks like you're hiding something.

In none of these cases do I think these sellers are deliberately hiding anything. Rather, I truly believe they have simply never bought an airplane themselves before, and are therefore unschooled in what buyers want to know.

Yet another drawback to buying a homebuilt. This is one I never anticipated...
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Jay, the things you listed above are not the "very basic, fundamental things to be answered or stated"... You're asking for detail pictures, which means a trip to the airport to make the pictures, uploading the pictures to a computer, etc. Many people get to the airport about once a week, so you may not get immediate gratification.

Looking at homebuilts isn't any different than any other airplane you see on TAP, Barnstormers, or wherever. Sparse on data, missing interior shots, missing panel shots, missing exterior shots, blurry shots, photos taken inside a hangar. I'm sure the sellers mean well, but they don't sell or market things for a living, and their lack of expertise shows.
 
kyleb said:
Jay, the things you listed above are not the "very basic, fundamental things to be answered or stated"... You're asking for detail pictures, which means a trip to the airport to make the pictures, uploading the pictures to a computer, etc. Many people get to the airport about once a week, so you may not get immediate gratification.
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Yes, but most of the sellers I have worked with would at least let you know that it might take a couple days to get back to you with photos and additional info.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
kyleb said:
Jay, the things you listed above are not the "very basic, fundamental things to be answered or stated"... You're asking for detail pictures, which means a trip to the airport to make the pictures, uploading the pictures to a computer, etc. Many people get to the airport about once a week, so you may not get immediate gratification.
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In an era where everyone has a digital camera in their pocket 24/7, there is zero reason to not have pictures of the plane you're trying to sell taken from all angles.

The seller of the one we looked at in MN sent me 8 photos. I had a buddy in the area take over TWO HUNDRED photos, and dump them in a Dropbox account. Cost: Zero.

Yet I'm supposed to have patience with rubes trying sell airplanes that cost almost $100K who send me a handful of blurry pictures, yet expect me to pay an expert for a prebuy inspection based on them?

Based on those 200 photos, my RV expert determined that the plane was worthy of a full pre-buy inspection. Without those photos, I would not have bothered.

Now, 200 is over the top, but if you think it's not important to see a picture of the engine compartment, well, good luck buying your next plane. You will waste a lot of time paying for pre-buy inspections on aircraft that could have been eliminated with a glance at a photograph.
 
Jay, that is the downside of easier access to posting. There is little disincentive for people to post worthless ads. So the noise goes way up. Haven't bought a plane, but I've purchased other things from private sellers online and seen ads with pictures so blurry I could barely make out what they were selling. I can't understand the thought process there. I know not everyone is an award winning photographer, but if someone selling an airplane provides a bunch of indecipherable pictures instead of finding some way to get in focus pictures (find a qualified friend, hire someone, keep shooting til you get it right, etc...) ... that's got to say something about their personality and priorities when it comes to their plane. And it's not a good sign, at least to me.

I'm interested to know how your search goes and I hope you'll post updates on your experience. I'm looking to be in a position to buy an aircraft in a couple years and an RV is on my list of options (buying, not building). Would definitely like to know what works for you in finding a good one.
 
kyleb said:
I realize you're on a rant, but c'mon...
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I'm dead serious. One photo of an open engine compartment will weed out a whole bunch of crappy airplanes. Since prebuy inspections on aircraft that are scattered from coast to coast gets insanely expensive, these photos are essential to my search.

I'm thinking about preparing a stock questionnaire email to send to clueless sellers. That way they could simply fill in the blanks. That still won't solve the photo issue, though.

Oh, well. Luckily, I have no real need for an RV-8A, and would probably be better off waiting another year until my daughter is out of the house before buying a 2-seat plane. If a good one is presented in the meantime, I will jump at it -- but so far no one has presented anything worth pursuing.
 
What do you expect to see that will indicate whether it's worth further consideration?

Jay Honeck said:
I'm dead serious. One photo of an open engine compartment will weed out a whole bunch of crappy airplanes. Since prebuy inspections on aircraft that are scattered from coast to coast gets insanely expensive, these photos are essential to my search.

I'm thinking about preparing a stock questionnaire email to send to clueless sellers. That way they could simply fill in the blanks. That still won't solve the photo issue, though.

Oh, well. Luckily, I have no real need for an RV-8A, and would probably be better off waiting another year until my daughter is out of the house before buying a 2-seat plane. If a good one is presented in the meantime, I will jump at it -- but so far no one has presented anything worth pursuing.
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wabower said:
What do you expect to see that will indicate whether it's worth further consideration?
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Here's what's happening: Because of my "Want to buy" post on Van's website I'm being contacted by sellers. Some of these guys are calling the hotel two or three times before reaching me. They are THAT eager to sell.

They then send me a handful of blurry, low res pix that were taken when they built the plane. They provide no, or very sketchy, info on airframe, engine, and prop times. Then, when I request more info, or try to organize a look/see visit, they don't reply. WTF?

WRT your question, a simple high res photo or two of the engine compartment will tell you volumes about the aircraft, the original builder, and/or the current owner.

- Are the wires run neatly and tied off properly?
- Are all hoses routed properly?
- Are the oil lines secured to mitigate vibration?
- What color are the cylinders?
- Is the area clean, or crusted with oil?

Etc.

Like looking at the condition of the gutters on a house, the engine compartment is a cheap, quick, and simple way to assess a sellers knowledge and attention to detail.
 
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