Is it ever a good idea to sit on the runway after calling departure?

However, there is a considerable difference between losing altitude quickly and alligning with the runway.

I checked on the regs. :) Nope, nothing against slipping with full flaps in the FARs. That is not nece-celery true of the POH.
 
nyoung said:
This is horrible. Please don't do it.

IMHO, there is absolutely zero reason to ever use position and hold at a non-towered airport.

With the exception of a few seconds to spool up the engines on a twin, or verify that a localizer needle is working correctly... Position and hold achieves nothing that could not be done behind the hold short line.
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How about for short field procedure? I was taught position hold full power check guages and roll. Dosen't take a lot of time but its still holding on the runway.
 
Everskyward said:
I think there is a difference between doing things in a timely manner and trying to do things faster than your capabilities allow. This would apply to both getting on the runway and getting off of it.
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I think I know what you mean, and I agree with you that there are times when a brief "pause" on the runway to accomplish things like getting the throttles set and one last look at the engine gauges as you bring the power up with the brakes set (for a short field takeoff for instance) is appropriate. But there's a world of difference between the seconds it takes to start the takeoff roll properly and sitting there having a discussion.

When I cross the hold short line the only thing I want to hear from my instructor or co-pilot is any calls I've asked him to make, or the "abort" call. Otherwise it's a sterile cockpit until we're at pattern altitude, and only safety-of-flight stuff gets discussed.
 
Windrider said:
I checked on the regs. :) Nope, nothing against slipping with full flaps in the FARs. That is not nece-celery true of the POH.
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I know of no light plane which has such a prohibition in its POH. If anyone knows of one, I'd like to hear about it.
 
AdamZ said:
How about for short field procedure? I was taught position hold full power check guages and roll. Dosen't take a lot of time but its still holding on the runway.
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Big difference between "line up, run up, check, and roll" and sitting there talking about what you're going to do for "5 minutes or so," and it is the latter which we are saying is unacceptable.
 
Steven, I want you to deliberately land on a runway while a commercial airliner is still rolling out... I'll be the old guy in the first row of spectators at your trial...

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
Steven, I want you to deliberately land on a runway while a commercial airliner is still rolling out... I'll be the old guy in the first row of spectators at your trial...

denny-o
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At a towered field one would not be cleared to land. One would be told to go around. At an uncontrolled field...

But the point remains, it is not illegal for two airplanes to be on the runway at the same time in certain conditions.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
But the point remains, it is not illegal for two airplanes to be on the runway at the same time in certain conditions.
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I know I've done it at Gastons more then once. But I always coordinate with and ask permission of the aircraft in front of me.
 
Well, the original question has become somewhat moot. I am no longer flying with that instructor. That does not make the situation moot should it ever arise again with any instructor pilot working with me or anyone else, I suppose.

Unfortunately, I am not actually flying with another instructor pilot either. I've found another set of posts on the site regarding things to look over and helpful sites for a pilot who's been out of flying for awhile and plan to work through those in the next few days, but I am feeling rather discouraged at this point. My resources are not limitless, the summer is nearly over, one cannot pass a flight review online or from a book, and a lot of time and money has been drained into the effort to date.
 
Windrider said:
Well, the original question has become somewhat moot. I am no longer flying with that instructor. That does not make the situation moot should it ever arise again with any instructor pilot working with me or anyone else, I suppose.

Unfortunately, I am not actually flying with another instructor pilot either. I've found another set of posts on the site regarding things to look over and helpful sites for a pilot who's been out of flying for awhile and plan to work through those in the next few days, but I am feeling rather discouraged at this point. My resources are not limitless, the summer is nearly over, one cannot pass a flight review online or from a book, and a lot of time and money has been drained into the effort to date.
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Where are you located? Perhaps a forum member could provide recommendations WRT good CFIs and/or a cost effective solution in the vicinity.
 
Dr. O said:
Steven, I want you to deliberately land on a runway while a commercial airliner is still rolling out... I'll be the old guy in the first row of spectators at your trial...
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What trial?
 
Dr. O said:
Steven, I want you to deliberately land on a runway while a commercial airliner is still rolling out... I'll be the old guy in the first row of spectators at your trial...

denny-o
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Done that at BWI on a couple of occasions - the airliner was WAAY down the runway, and I was cleared to land and did so.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
At a towered field one would not be cleared to land. One would be told to go around. At an uncontrolled field...

But the point remains, it is not illegal for two airplanes to be on the runway at the same time in certain conditions.
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I've been involved in both of these. On the ground before the airliner cleared the runway 8000 feet away and unable to get off the runway forcing an airliner to go around.

A closed taxiway can force a plane to stay on the runway longer than desired but with a long runway it is not an issue.
 
TMetzinger said:
Done that at BWI on a couple of occasions - the airliner was WAAY down the runway, and I was cleared to land and did so.
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Sounds like the tower failed to provide the required same runway separation.
 
roncachamp said:
Sounds like the tower failed to provide the required same runway separation.
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Assumes facts not in evidence, to wit, how long the runway was (one of BWI's is over 10,000) and how much separation was required given the aircraft categories.
 
Ron Levy said:
Assumes facts not in evidence, to wit, how long the runway was (one of BWI's is over 10,000) and how much separation was required given the aircraft categories.
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It assumes only that the "airliner" was not a CATEGORY I aircraft, which are "small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with a single propeller driven engine, and all helicopters", or a CATEGORY II aircraft, which are "small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with propeller driven twin-engines", leaving only CATEGORY III aircraft, which are "all other aircraft".

It doesn't matter how long the runway was or that the the airliner was WAAY down the runway when he landed behind it, there is no minimum distance for any aircraft to land behind a CATEGORY III aircraft.
 
TMetzinger said:
Done that at BWI on a couple of occasions - the airliner was WAAY down the runway, and I was cleared to land and did so.
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Cleared to land with the airliner on the runway or actually landed with the airliner on the runway? The key question is whether the airliner was still on the runway when you crossed the threshold.

Ron Levy said:
Assumes facts not in evidence, to wit, how long the runway was (one of BWI's is over 10,000) and how much separation was required given the aircraft categories.
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I think it is pretty safe to assume the "airliner" was a Category III aircraft, so the airliner should have been clear of the runway when Tim crossed the threshold.
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/atc0310.html#atc0310.html.2
 
Some additional facts - I was a lifeguard flight in a 182, and the 737 had not yet made the turnoff at the far end of the runway when I crossed the threshold. We had at least 8000 feet between us. This was in 2000.

Perhaps the tower controller made an error, or perhaps not depending on what the regs were at the time. But I landed and didn't think anything of it. - From my perspective he could have been at Dulles for all the effect he had on me.
 
TMetzinger said:
Some additional facts - I was a lifeguard flight in a 182, and the 737 had not yet made the turnoff at the far end of the runway when I crossed the threshold. We had at least 8000 feet between us. This was in 2000.

Perhaps the tower controller made an error, or perhaps not depending on what the regs were at the time. But I landed and didn't think anything of it. - From my perspective he could have been at Dulles for all the effect he had on me.
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The rules at that time required the 737 to be clear of the runway, all parts of it beyond the runway edge and no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking, before you crossed the landing threshold. The distance between the aircraft matters not.
 
So I guess some controllers will squeeze a little puddle jumper in when they shouldn't to try and keep the big iron flow going.

In reality isn't the "Cleared to land" transmission given to plane 2, regardless of class, prior to plane 1 totally clearing the runway?

I know it was in my case. The trailing Cat III asked the tower if they thought I would be clear of the runway in time. Then the PIC, not the tower, announced the go around as I turned onto the taxi way. I don't know where he was in relation to the Threshold.
 
RMCN172RG said:
So I guess some controllers will squeeze a little puddle jumper in when they shouldn't to try and keep the big iron flow going.

In reality isn't the "Cleared to land" transmission given to plane 2, regardless of class, prior to plane 1 totally clearing the runway?

I know it was in my case. The trailing Cat III asked the tower if they thought I would be clear of the runway in time. Then the PIC, not the tower, announced the go around as I turned onto the taxi way. I don't know where he was in relation to the Threshold.
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IIRC, the tower can clear you to land when another plane (even a jet) is still on the runway or even ahead of you in the air as long as they have reason to believe that it will work out in the end (e.g. the jet will exit the runway before you cross then threshold).
 
RMCN172RG said:
In reality isn't the "Cleared to land" transmission given to plane 2, regardless of class, prior to plane 1 totally clearing the runway?
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Yes. From JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control, para 3-10-6:

"Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a landing
sequence need not be withheld if you observe the
positions of the aircraft and determine that prescribed
runway separation will exist when the aircraft cross
the landing threshold."
 
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