Is ATITAPA EVER appropriate?

Trapper John said:
+1

I don't use it, don't plan to use it, but I'm not going to rip someone who does. We're all pretty fortunate that we have the health and financial resources to fly in the first place, getting our knickers in a knot over a phrase is really pretty trivial and petty.

Fly safe, and smile while doing so,
Trapper John
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VERY well stated. :yes:
 
kevin47881 said:
VERY well stated. :yes:
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I hope we can all agree that it is far more inappropriate to chastise a pilot (especially on the radio) for uttering the forbidden phrase than it would be to actually transmit ATITAPA. I see nothing wrong with this discussion on a forum like this but when I encounter a fellow pilot in the ATIT... camp I'm willing to just leave him to his ignorance unless it's someone I know and in that case I wouldn't go farther than to suggest that he might change tactics.
 
I agree. One if the problems with chastising other pilots over the radio is that it can lead to arguments over the radio, and that can get to be a real safety problem. I'll never forget trying to make position reports at an airport near here when there were a couple of pilots having a knock down drag out fight on the CTAF. They weren't leaving any time between transmissions for others to make calls. Finally I just keyed my mike just before I thought one of the participants was about to end his transmission, and that seemed to work.
 
FlyNE said:
I don't think that Missa was telling him to "get out of the sky" because of a propensity to use that phrase. I think she's taking issue with his stance that it's more prudent to ignore the FAA's opinion than to listen to it if you don't like what they say. On that point, she and I are in agreement.
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You got my point.
 
gismo said:
I hope we can all agree that it is far more inappropriate to chastise a pilot (especially on the radio) for uttering the forbidden phrase than it would be to actually transmit ATITAPA. I see nothing wrong with this discussion on a forum like this but when I encounter a fellow pilot in the ATIT... camp I'm willing to just leave him to his ignorance unless it's someone I know and in that case I wouldn't go farther than to suggest that he might change tactics.
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Far too many pilots don't do well with correction -- or out of the air.

I had a knucklehead enter the pattern downwind about 10 miles out in a Saratoga -- no announcements, no nuttin. I was entering on a 45 when I saw this rocket heading right for the front left cowling.

He was close enough I could see every bug on his windscreen.

I did a 60 degree bank to the right, then circled back, all the while stating my intentions: "Leaving the pattern in a 360-- will rejoin left downwind 26 on a 45..."

I watched the bozo rocket his way to the now obligatory 5 mile final (too much speed, too much altitude).

When I got on the ground and composed myself, I discovered Mister Wonderful in his hangar accompanied by a 20-something blonde.

Me: "How are you?"
MW: "Good..."
Me: "Hey.. did you happen to hear my radio calls...?"
MW: "What?"
Me: "I was entering the pattern after announcing and I never heard you or saw you until the last moment..."
"Yeah. Well, I announced when I was over the river...."
Me: "Un hunh...Announced what, exactly?"
MW: "That I was over the river....Hey, I gotta go..."
Me: "Of course..."
​
I asked if anyone knew MW over at the social hangar -- they laughed at me --"Oh, so you finally met Mister [posterior orifice]?!"

"Yeah, yeah... finally did..."

"That's SOP for that guy -- you should know that..."

Now... this is one small airport in Western PA.

Does anyone really think this is an isolated case?
 
dmccormack said:
Far too many pilots don't do well with correction -- or out of the air.

I had a knucklehead enter the pattern downwind about 10 miles out in a Saratoga -- no announcements, no nuttin. I was entering on a 45 when I saw this rocket heading right for the front left cowling.
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What radio calls was he required to make? If you had said "ATITAPA" do you think it would have helped him to speak up?

dmccormack said:
He was close enough I could see every bug on his windscreen.

I did a 60 degree bank to the right, then circled back, all the while stating my intentions: "Leaving the pattern in a 360-- will rejoin left downwind 26 on a 45..."

I watched the bozo rocket his way to the now obligatory 5 mile final (too much speed, too much altitude).

When I got on the ground and composed myself, I discovered Mister Wonderful in his hangar accompanied by a 20-something blonde.
Me: "How are you?"
MW: "Good..."
Me: "Hey.. did you happen to hear my radio calls...?"
MW: "What?"
Me: "I was entering the pattern after announcing and I never heard you or saw you until the last moment..."
"Yeah. Well, I announced when I was over the river...."
Me: "Un hunh...Announced what, exactly?"
MW: "That I was over the river....Hey, I gotta go..."
Me: "Of course..."
​
I asked if anyone knew MW over at the social hangar -- they laughed at me --"Oh, so you finally met Mister [posterior orifice]?!"

"Yeah, yeah... finally did..."

"That's SOP for that guy -- you should know that..."

Now... this is one small airport in Western PA.

Does anyone really think this is an isolated case?
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That guy gets around. I have seen him at my airport too. [/FACEPALM]
 
smigaldi said:
What radio calls was he required to make? If you had said "ATITAPA" do you think it would have helped him to speak up?
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Required by law or selfish survival?

I announce legs in the pattern so others know where I am so we don't mingle aluminum.

Forget regs -- common sense dictates that we not enter the pattern at 200+ knots, that we let others know when we're five miles out and how and when we are entering downwind.

Now you can counter that NORDOs don't have to do any of that. Fine.

If you have the gear, you fail to employ it, and you endanger others, you're guilty of arrogant stupidity -- which may be a worse crime than not adhering to the CFRs.

But every (EVERY) NORDO I've encountered in the pattern has been slow enough to be visible. And so far everyone I've encountered has been predictable.

Saratogas, Bonanzas, and the like should announce given the higher speeds this birds are flown -- even though there is no reason to be at cruise power within 5 miles of the pattern (unless you hate your engine and gear).
 
dmccormack said:
Required by law or selfish survival?

I announce legs in the pattern so others know where I am so we don't mingle aluminum.

Forget regs -- common sense dictates that we not enter the pattern at 200+ knots, that we let others know when we're five miles out and how and when we are entering downwind.

Now you can counter that NORDOs don't have to do any of that. Fine.

If you have the gear, you fail to employ it, and you endanger others, you're guilty of arrogant stupidity -- which may be a worse crime than not adhering to the CFRs.

But every (EVERY) NORDO I've encountered in the pattern has been slow enough to be visible. And so far everyone I've encountered has been predictable.

Saratogas, Bonanzas, and the like should announce given the higher speeds this birds are flown -- even though there is no reason to be at cruise power within 5 miles of the pattern (unless you hate your engine and gear).
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Not disagreeing with what you wrote at all. I am just saying that for safety's sake I just assume that every person in the air except me will fly like that guy in your post pseudo or real NORDO, too fast, too unaware, etc. Unfortunately there is no shortage of pilots like him.
 
smigaldi said:
Not disagreeing with what you wrote at all. I am just saying that for safety's sake I just assume that every person in the air except me will fly like that guy in your post pseudo or real NORDO, too fast, too unaware, etc. Unfortunately there is no shortage of pilots like him.
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I assume that as well... but I don't pretend to be omniscient -- sometimes you just don't see these knuckleheads until it is too late.
 
Sorry for resurrecting the thread but I just had an FAA person from the FSDO tell me that ATITAPA is a good practice that prevents midair collisions, helps you know where people are when the frequency is congested, and should be used.

Doesn't the AIM come from the FAA?

I'm dumbfounded.
 
skyflyer8 said:
Sorry for resurrecting the thread but I just had an FAA person from the FSDO tell me that ATITAPA is a good practice that prevents midair collisions, helps you know where people are when the frequency is congested, and should be used.

Doesn't the AIM come from the FAA?

I'm dumbfounded.
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:yikes: OMG!
 
skyflyer8 said:
Sorry for resurrecting the thread but I just had an FAA person from the FSDO tell me that ATITAPA is a good practice that prevents midair collisions, helps you know where people are when the frequency is congested, and should be used.

Doesn't the AIM come from the FAA?

I'm dumbfounded.
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Hi. I'm from the FAA, and I'm here to confuse you.
 
skyflyer8 said:
Sorry for resurrecting the thread but I just had an FAA person from the FSDO tell me that ATITAPA is a good practice that prevents midair collisions, helps you know where people are when the frequency is congested, and should be used.

Doesn't the AIM come from the FAA?

I'm dumbfounded.
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Did you get his/her name and which FSDO?
 
skyflyer8 said:
Sorry for resurrecting the thread but I just had an FAA person from the FSDO tell me that ATITAPA is a good practice that prevents midair collisions, helps you know where people are when the frequency is congested, and should be used.

Doesn't the AIM come from the FAA?

I'm dumbfounded.
Click to expand...

TangoWhiskey said:
Hi. I'm from the FAA, and I'm here to confuse you.
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Did he recommend you add the ATITAPA at every report and pattern leg, crosswind, downwind, base, final, "Clear of the active?" :D

Don 'cha wish you could have been there at the committee meeting when the vote for taken for putting the ATITAPA mention in the AIM?

It could be explained by our discovery here that how you feel about depends on where you fly. Us flatlanders hate hearing it from planes at airports in a 150 mile radius. Pilots flying where there is real terrain can't imagine what the big deal is.

Again my favorite was the commercial pilot (far away, of course) ending 6 calls with a bored, "Anyaircraftinthepatternorvicinitypleaseadvise."
 
skyflyer8 said:
Sorry for resurrecting the thread but I just had an FAA person from the FSDO tell me that ATITAPA is a good practice that prevents midair collisions, helps you know where people are when the frequency is congested, and should be used.

Doesn't the AIM come from the FAA?

I'm dumbfounded.
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What was your response?
 
skyflyer8 said:
Sorry for resurrecting the thread but I just had an FAA person from the FSDO tell me that ATITAPA is a good practice that prevents midair collisions, helps you know where people are when the frequency is congested, and should be used.

Doesn't the AIM come from the FAA?

I'm dumbfounded.
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Since when does the FAA have to follow their own rules?:frown2:
 
Ditto on the :yikes:.

This was in-person! :eek: I seriously thought it was sarcasm at first.

I inserted a couple bits of logic to no avail. "What if five people are in the pattern when you say that?" etc. (Dangit why didn't I think of NORDO)

I just got the midair safety argument, and "that's always been an accepted practice," and something about how it helps situational awareness during frequency congestion when more than one airport shares a frequency.

Then I gave up. I figured it was best not to argue. Perhaps I will mail a packet of informative documents.
 
skyflyer8 said:
Herein lies the problem, what do I do with that information? I don't want to suffer endless ramp checks the rest of my life. Hmm.
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Well, I had a problem with my CFI checkride Ops Inspector (I posted the whole lousy experience somewhere on here).

Apparently I wasn't the only one to have problems with this loose cannon. About a month after my checkride he was gone.

Just because s/he is from the FAA today, doesn't mean it'll be so tomorrow.
 
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