Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or no?

[pj500]

Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or no?

It's hard to tell based on my ruler... It's a close one.

 

[flyingron]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

Airnav computes it at 49.9 NM. That is not "more than 50." If you fly to some place a little further away you can count it even if you land at S87. XC flights do not need to be non-stop.

 

[ajyeary]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

As Ron mentioned, Airnav shows 49.9NM, while Skyvector shows it at 50NM.

Using the Great Circle Calculator and published A/FD latlongs ( http://williams.best.vwh.net/gccalc.htm ):
Spherical model: 49.94
WGS84: 50.00
Clark: 50.00
International: 50.01
Krasovsky: 50.00
Bessel: 49.9977
WGS72: 50.00
WGS66: 50.00
FAI Sphere: 49.97

So... yeah. I'd say that you could probably count it, but it'd be a lot easier to just go somewhere slightly further away so there's no question (and because why not?). Maybe take a slight detour over to S49?

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

According to Google Earth, the distance between the two airport reference points is 303,816 feet.

50nm is 303,806ft.

I'd say it's a good XC.

 

[Owad1971]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

As others have said, its a close call. Why not add a stop & go then some site seeing at OU89...Keep in mind...Its the HOURS that add up too!

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

As others have said, its a close call. Why not add a stop & go then some site seeing at OU89...Keep in mind...Its the HOURS that add up too!

I'm guessing he's going through his logbook to see how much XC time he has, so its probably a flight he's already done.

 

[pj500]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

I'm guessing he's going through his logbook to see how much XC time he has, so its probably a flight he's already done.

Pretty much.

Thanks guys. I'm not really in a hurry and am just counting flights that happened for other reasons. The ability to count these trips really comes down to the semantics of how distance is measured -- literally down to which direction you land could make the difference, but I figured there was some definition of the distance used for measurement as we're talking the distance of a few hundred feet here.

Lee Memorial is a nice airport. Problem is in winter, it is often clouded in due to surrounding terrain, and you have to inquire if someone got around to plowing it...

However what you say about hours is correct. Putting a C-150 into econo cruise billed on the tach hour would be the easiest/cheapest way to get this done but it's not what I'm after. It will happen in due time.

 

[Owad1971]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

Pretty much.

Thanks guys. I'm not really in a hurry and am just counting flights that happened for other reasons. The ability to count these trips really comes down to the semantics of how distance is measured -- literally down to which direction you land could make the difference, but I figured there was some definition of the distance used for measurement as we're talking the distance of a few hundred feet here.

Lee Memorial is a nice airport. Problem is in winter, it is often clouded in due to surrounding terrain, and you have to inquire if someone got around to plowing it...

However what you say about hours is correct. Putting a C-150 into econo cruise billed on the tach hour would be the easiest/cheapest way to get this done but it's not what I'm after. It will happen in due time.

Understood...I am in the same boat! All my flights now MUST count towards XC requirements as I am not independently wealthy

Good luck!

 

[flyingron]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

50 is not more than 50.

 

[48dodge]

Do a short field TO at home and land long at the other.

 

[ajyeary]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

50 is not more than 50.

Ah, but 50.01 is. As is 50.00[...]01. Even one foot over 50 NM would technically be loggable, wouldn't it?

Related to OP: from another data source, I've obtained a distance of 50.0021 NM (WGS84 model). Still greater than 50 NM!

Now, I wonder what the variation is, dependent on where you take off and land. I've got the data for the threshold coordinates for both airports...

Assuming a worst case: you take off from KBOI RWY 28L and use every bit of it (i.e., left the Earth right at the 10R threshold). That means you'd depart the ground at (43:34:12.1213 N, 116:14:33.4152 W). You then land right at the threshold of S87 RWY 30 (44:12:30.9473 N, 116:57:57.0018 W). That would put you at a total flight distance (straight line, WGS84 model), of 49.52 NM. So if you had a 1000-foot takeoff roll instead of a 9000+-foot takeoff roll, you're over the magic 50 NM.

This is a neat little edge case.

 

[rbridges]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

According to Google Earth, the distance between the two airport reference points is 303,816 feet.

50nm is 303,806ft.

I'd say it's a good XC.

arguing about 10 ft over a 50 mile distance. I'd say count it. At least if you get confronted about it, you do have a leg to stand on.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

As Ron mentioned, Airnav shows 49.9NM, while Skyvector shows it at 50NM.

Using the Great Circle Calculator and published A/FD latlongs ( http://williams.best.vwh.net/gccalc.htm ):
Spherical model: 49.94
WGS84: 50.00
Clark: 50.00
International: 50.01
Krasovsky: 50.00
Bessel: 49.9977
WGS72: 50.00
WGS66: 50.00
FAI Sphere: 49.97

So... yeah. I'd say that you could probably count it, but it'd be a lot easier to just go somewhere slightly further away so there's no question (and because why not?). Maybe take a slight detour over to S49?

50.00 is not "a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles", so it does not count.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

Ah, but 50.01 is. As is 50.00[...]01. Even one foot over 50 NM would technically be loggable, wouldn't it?

Nine methods (including all those used by aviation systems) say it's not "more than 50 nautical miles". Good luck making the argument before the FAA that one outlying system says it's 50.01.

 

[ajyeary]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

Nine methods (including all those used by aviation systems) say it's not "more than 50 nautical miles". Good luck making the argument before the FAA that one outlying system says it's 50.01.

Ya got me. I rounded to the nearest hundredth before. Here's to the thousandths.

For the "50.00"s:
WGS84: 50.003
Clarke: 50.004
Krasovsky: 50.004
WGS72: 50.003
WGS66: 50.003

That still leaves Spherical, Bessel, and FAI Sphere as your discrepancies, but I'd say that you'd have a case either way, really. To reiterate, though, if I were doing this I'd just take a detour out to S49 just to make damn sure I had that 50+ NM. I just find this a sort of neat edge case.

Edited to add: I used the information from the FAA's AVN datasheet system ( http://avnwww.jccbi.gov/datasheet/ ) and got the following, just for completeness (again, rounded out to nearest thousandths):

KBOI: 43:33:51.70 N, 116:13:22.30 W
S87: 44:12:16.80 N, 116:57:37.90 W

Spherical: 49.935
WGS84: 50.002
Clarke: 50.002
International: 50.004
Krasovsky: 50.003
Bessel: 49.996
WGS72: 50.002
WGS66: 50.002
FAI Sphere: 49.969

 

[Brad Z]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

Nine methods (including all those used by aviation systems) say it's not "more than 50 nautical miles". Good luck making the argument before the FAA that one outlying system says it's 50.01.

I'd like to see the case brought against the pilot by the FAA for something like this. It's just not going to happen.

The reality is it's going to come down to the local examiner and whether he considers it a valid xc or not. And even if all nine methods said that it's greater than 50nm, it's not going to matter if the examiner disagrees.

As far as logging it, the 50nm rule doesn't apply to logging XC time. Only XC time that can be used towards the PP, CP and IA certifcates and ratings.

OP-- Ask your instructor. There's a good chance someone has already decided whether this is a valid XC or not.

 

[pj500]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

Thanks folks.

It was fun to ask, because it was such a unique corner case.

Now a more simpler one. This came out to be 2.0 hours on the tach of a C-172. No clue the hobbs time. What's Loggable as the CC? Can I log the whole mess or do I have to skip the KBOI->S78 leg?

KBOI S78 U76 U89 KBOI http://skyvector.com/?ll=43.4345061....K1.KBOI:A.K1.S78:A.K1.U76:A.K1.U89:A.K1.KBOI

 

[ja_user]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

You all really don't like to get very far from home do you

 

[pj500]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

You all really don't like to get very far from home do you

Nope not really. Sitting in a mountain valley, winter, rentals, and other factors do place against this.

 

[mcmanigle]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

Now a more simpler one. This came out to be 2.0 hours on the tach of a C-172. No clue the hobbs time. What's Loggable as the CC? Can I log the whole mess or do I have to skip the KBOI->S78 leg?

KBOI S78 U76 U89 KBOI http://skyvector.com/?ll=43.4345061....K1.KBOI:A.K1.S78:A.K1.U76:A.K1.U89:A.K1.KBOI

Given that KBOI was your original point of departure, and U89 is at least 50nm from it, the whole flight counts as XC. (If U89 weren't far enough away, you would have had to treat the first leg as a separate, non-XC flight, so your XC flight had S78 as the "original point of departure", but lucky for you that's not the case.)

The more complicated issue is the tach time. You should be logging flight time as time the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight to time it comes to rest after landing. FAA generally takes Hobbs time for this, but it doesn't really correlate with tach time. Any chance you have takeoff and landing times written down somewhere? (On the other hand, tach time will probably be shorter, so I guess at least they can't claim you're over-logging?)

 

[Owad1971]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

 

[pj500]

Re: Is a non-stop KBOI-S87 loggable cross country time for purposes of IFR rating or

Given that KBOI was your original point of departure, and U89 is at least 50nm from it, the whole flight counts as XC. (If U89 weren't far enough away, you would have had to treat the first leg as a separate, non-XC flight, so your XC flight had S78 as the "original point of departure", but lucky for you that's not the case.)

The more complicated issue is the tach time. You should be logging flight time as time the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight to time it comes to rest after landing. FAA generally takes Hobbs time for this, but it doesn't really correlate with tach time. Any chance you have takeoff and landing times written down somewhere? (On the other hand, tach time will probably be shorter, so I guess at least they can't claim you're over-logging?)

I try, when I don't forget to start a stopwatch.

Otherwise, I've logged 1.1 times TACH, which usually gives me the short end of the stick anyways.

Thanks guys, been a fun thread!