IR check ride question

Although my CFI engrained it into my brain, I always listen for the VOR station identification when I tune it in. However, my GPS does have an auto-identify feature where it displays the station name under the frequency. In the unlikely event that I forget to listen to the ID but do read it on the display, is that legal or does the DPE need me to physically listen for it?
Yes, it's legal, since your Garmin 530 (or higher) is actually listening to the Morse and decoding it. SL30's do the same thing. Just remember to listen to the ID on your #2 for any required cross-radials if it doesn't have that feature.
 
Further, with all the CFI's and examiners I've flown with most just verify there is morse for about half a second.
I've yet to meet an examiner who accepts just a quick listen for some code rather than listening to the entire identifier. That is a quick way to be tracking the wrong VOR station if you misdial the frequency.
That only serves to prove the station is on, not which one.
Exactly.

OTOH, if you have one of the Garmins with the auto-identification feature, it has listened to and decoded the Morse before it gives you valid steering, so you can rely on that once you check for the right station identification on the screen without listening at all.
 
I've yet to meet an examiner who accepts just a quick listen for some code rather than listening to the entire identifier. That is a quick way to be tracking the wrong VOR station if you misdial the frequency.
.

You might be able to accurately identify the station by the morse. I doubt many can. Just for fun I tested several very experienced pilots by asking "what ID was that?". I haven't had one yet that could answer correctly or even close to correct. Here is an example.

This is KADS ILS 15 Freq. 110.1

…--…..

This is KTKI ILS 18 Freq. 109.35 (18 miles away)
…..-..

Put these on a high speed loop and for the average pilot NFW!

Better to spend the time triple verifying the correct frequency IMO.
 
You might be able to accurately identify the station by the morse. I doubt many can.
Every single one of my trainees can -- by comparing what they hear to the Morse code printed on the chart. If you can't "read" Morse (something I picked up as a ham operator about 50 years ago and never lost entirely, although I can't copy 13 wpm any more), you'd better be checking the audio against the dots and dashes on the chart. Why? The issue is that the FAA has run out of ILS freqs in the Northeast (maybe elsewhere, too), and they have to share one freq between both ends of a runway that has full ILS both ways rather than using two different freqs. Same freq, different identifier, and a big switch in the tower to select between the two (can't have both on at once). And here's how) that can go wrong (if you haven't guessed already...

A few years ago, I was flying with a client into Bedford MA (KBED). They'd been on 11 all day due to crummy weather, but the front came through, the air cleared, and the wind shifted to the northwest while we were on our way back. When we got here, they were running visuals to 29, but we asked Boston for the ILS instead (for training). They turned us to the base leg, and the needles came active, but didn't look right. Checked the Morse, and it was I-BED -- the ILS for 11 on the same freq as the ILS to 29 (I-ULJ). Tower had forgotten to throw the big switch to change the ILS. Quick call Boston Approach, a few seconds later the needles go dead, then come alive looking right and the Morse is now I-ULJ. Had we been in the goo and not checked the Morse, it could have been ugly. Not the first time Tower folks have done this, and probably won't be the last, so it behooves you to check to see what the Morse is, not just that it's there.

Better to spend the time triple verifying the correct frequency IMO.
As my story shows, just making sure you have the right frequency is not enough if you listen only enough to see that Morse code is present rather than also correct. Tune and identify!
 
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Ron-

My hats off to you. If your trainees can really translate morse accurately with no prior experience then I guess you're way ahead of us down here in the south.

Open challenge (friendly) to other pilots without radio experience:

Attached is a morse sample for this localizer:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1313/06644IL18.PDF

See the attached audio file. Be honest with yourself and only listen to it the amount of time you would prior to an approach. Is it right if not why not?
 

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Ron-

My hats off to you. If your trainees can really translate morse accurately with no prior experience then I guess you're way ahead of us down here in the south.

Open challenge (friendly) to other pilots without radio experience:

Attached is a morse sample for this localizer:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1313/06644IL18.PDF

See the attached audio file. Be honest with yourself and only listen to it the amount of time you would prior to an approach. Is it right if not why not?

That's A LOT faster than the ones I've heard broadcast. The one for GRR takes about 2.75-3 seconds to go through it.
 
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My hats off to you. If your trainees can really translate morse accurately with no prior experience then I guess you're way ahead of us down here in the south.
I live a hundred miles south of the Mason-Dixon, and many of my trainees are in the Carolinas or further south (GA, AL, TX, etc), so I don't think it's a regional issue.* It is, however, a matter of practice, and they get plenty of that during their training -- including on the sim before trying it in the airplane. I've yet to have a single one not be able to do that by the end of training despite zero prior Morse decoding experience.

*Nor do I take kindly, sir, to the suggestion that Southerners are somehow less educable than those from the other side of the War of Northern Aggression. :wink2:
 
That's A LOT faster than the ones I've heard broadcast. The one for GRR takes about 2.75-3 seconds to go through it.

I'm no morse generation expert. I was just guessing the speed. Try this one slowed down.
 

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That's A LOT faster than the ones I've heard broadcast. The one for GRR takes about 2.75-3 seconds to go through it.
Whoops, didn't see that this was supposed to be for pilots WITHOUT radio experience. Okay, fair 'nuff.

I still agree with Ed, even the slowed down version is much faster than any morse ID I've ever heard. Try 5-7 wpm, I think they're supposed to be somewhere in there.
 
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Whoops, didn't see that this was supposed to be for pilots WITHOUT radio experience. Okay, fair 'nuff.

I still agree with Ed, even the slowed down version is much faster than any morse ID I've ever heard. Try 5-7 wpm, I think they're supposed to be somewhere in there.

I the only Morse I know is GRR's ID. _ _ . / . _ . / . _ . and that's because I've been ID'ing it for 10 years. All the other ones I look at the plate/chart and follow along as I listen. I don't even know if SOS is dots dashes dots or dashes dots dashes. lol
 
I the only Morse I know is GRR's ID. _ _ . / . _ . / . _ . and that's because I've been ID'ing it for 10 years. All the other ones I look at the plate/chart and follow along as I listen. I don't even know if SOS is dots dashes dots or dashes dots dashes. lol
I learned the Code as a child, both of my parents were lifelong hams. It's come in handy when flying, even though now with a 480 and a SL30, I don't really need to listen. I still do though, because the radios seem to need a couple of times through before they display the decoded ID, and all I need (at that speed) is once.

(I find dots and dashes almost unreadable though. To me, morse is an aural language. It's easier if you spell it out: dah dah dit, didah dit, didah dit.

</threadcreep>)
 
I learned the Code as a child, both of my parents were lifelong hams. It's come in handy when flying, even though now with a 480 and a SL30, I don't really need to listen. I still do though, because the radios seem to need a couple of times through before they display the decoded ID, and all I need (at that speed) is once.

(I find dots and dashes almost unreadable though. To me, morse is an aural language. It's easier if you spell it out: dah dah dit, didah dit, didah dit.

</threadcreep>)

Good. I was starting to feel terrible. I still need to spend some more time on one of the trainers.
 
I teach my trainees to do it the same way on the practical test as they would the day after. If your GPS is operational, program the approach, and use the GPS all the way to the final segment, then go back to GPS on the missed (but still set up the VOR's for the approach in case you have to revert in the middle due to GPS issues). If not, then just leave the GPS out of it completely. For example, if there are DME fixes, and you have a GPS but not a DME, then either the GPS is working and you use it as "normal," or the GPS is not working, then you play it without the lower DME stepdown and fly to the regular non-DME mins. I've seen too many people get balled up trying to do an approach as a mish-mash of GPS and no-GPS procedures.
I don't know if I'm reading you correctly, but are you really saying that on this approach, if you didn't have DME but you had a working GPS, you would give up the DME minimums because you don't want to mix GPS and non-GPS procedures?

I trained on this approach when I was going for my IR and flew it on my checkride too, and never thought anything of flying with the NAV radio driving the CDI but watching the "DME" window on the 480 for the magic number to step down. JOBGO isn't in the 480 database and flying the GPS course is a bust for good reason -- the GPS course is displaced by several degrees from the charted one.
 
I don't know if I'm reading you correctly, but are you really saying that on this approach, if you didn't have DME but you had a working GPS, you would give up the DME minimums because you don't want to mix GPS and non-GPS procedures?
No. I'm saying the if the DPE said I couldn't use the GPS on this approach, I would ignore the GPS completely, and just fly the approach VOR-only ignoring the JOBGO fix and DME minima, using time to stay within 10nm of the FNT VOR on the PT.

I trained on this approach when I was going for my IR and flew it on my checkride too, and never thought anything of flying with the NAV radio driving the CDI but watching the "DME" window on the 480 for the magic number to step down. JOBGO isn't in the 480 database and flying the GPS course is a bust for good reason -- the GPS course is displaced by several degrees from the charted one.
If the DPE has said the GPS is inoperative, then you can't fly to the DME minima no matter what you actually see in the "DME window" (that readout being based on GPS data, not, for those unfamiliar with the Garmin 480, an internal DME device). In fact, if the DPE said that, it should be a bust if you tried to use the "inoperative" GPS, since you'd be using an inoperative device to sub for the DME you don't have. OTOH, if the DPE has not said the GPS was inop, I'd load the approach and use the GPS to the max extent practical including descending to the DME minimum after passing JOBGO. There's just no middle ground -- either the GPS is working properly, or it isn't, and you fly the approach accordingly.
 
Okay, that makes sense --- I thought you were saying something else.
 
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