iPad for flight training and log books

[acimburek]

Hello Everyone~

I am getting ready to start pilot lessons and I am also getting ready to buy a new iPad. As I move closer to making a decision on which iPad to get, a few questions popped into my mind that hopefully some folks here can assist me with.

I am going to get an iPad mini with LTE service. My question there is, for those who use an iPad for flight logs and whatnot, what STORAGE do you have? I was thinking a 32GB one, but I wasn't sure if that is enough storage to hold the applications that are used PLUS anything else I may want to put on.

The other question I had was WHAT applications are used? Are there different ones that do the same thing and do people have a preference?

Any information would be very helpful!

Thanks!

Andrew

 

[MAKG1]

For primary training, use it for pre- and postflight purposes only. You MUST be able to function without it.

It's a nice tool for weight and balance, and for flight planning, but you should learn to do those by hand as well.

There are apps for studying for the written, and for learning other things, but there are alternatives there.

The problem with using it for logging as a student is getting your instructor's signatures in it. There are some facilities for doing so, but they are not universal and your instructor may not like the hoops you have to jump through.

I'll suggest it's a little premature. Perhaps get yourself one as a checkride present.

Most importantly, these questions are most appropriately asked of your instructor. This is what your instructor is there for, at least in part. If you can't ask them for whatever reason, you need a different instructor.

 

[MachFly]

I use an Ipad 2 with 16GB, 16GB is not enough, especially if you want to be using the Ipad for non-aviation purposes as well. Go for 32GB.
As far as apps go I recommend Foreflight.


On a different topic. I do not recommend using an Ipad when getting your PPL. You need to learn doing stuff yourself before getting the Ipad to do everything for you. I've had the Ipad overheat and stop working in the cockpit a number of time, you need to be able to fly without the Ipad if you don't want your life to be dependent on your Ipad's reliability.

 

[acimburek]

Yeah, I'm getting a new iPad anyway. So I am just looking into the future. Looking to get something that I don't have to replace when I finally get there and decide I needed more.

 

[ChitDisturber]

If you wan a iPad get it, just leave it at home for flight training. I've had a couple guys ask about that and I tell them all to leave it at home until they earn their license.

Also your CFI needs to sign your log and that electronic stuff is a pain in the butt for flight training.

All that being said, I am 100% electronic on my logbook and have been for a few years, as a ATP/CFI I don't even use a iWhatever for flying, I have a .99 clipboard and a pen, charts and my TSOed instrumentation on my panel.

Once you get your ticket you can experiment with what you want in the cockpit, UNTIL then just use a jep paper logbook, paper sectional chart and manual (non-electronic) E6B.

 

[MAKG1]

Once you get your ticket you can experiment with what you want in the cockpit, UNTIL then just use a jep paper logbook, paper sectional chart and manual (non-electronic) E6B.

The manual E-6B is a bit of a surprise.

I found that I got MUCH better with the manual version than with the Sporty's electronic version, or with any of the several apps, by the time I finished primary training. This was a surprise; I have only a little bit of prior experience with slide rules. But the wind side in particular makes a lot of sense, and the electronic versions are just magic.

In the air, you aren't going to be using any of that stuff. You'll be estimating. But you do need to know it. Among other things, it's used in the written exams.

 

[poadeleted20]

I am going to get an iPad mini with LTE service.

Good -- that gives you an internal GPS, which will make life easier if you aren't always flying your own airplane.

My question there is, for those who use an iPad for flight logs and whatnot, what STORAGE do you have?

I have the 32gb which ForeFlight recommends if you're using ForeFlight, which I am.

I was thinking a 32GB one, but I wasn't sure if that is enough storage to hold the applications that are used PLUS anything else I may want to put on.

Depends what else you want to put on it. If that includes movies and the like, it won't be enough -- get all you can. If you're planning to use it only for aviation purposes, 32gb is plenty.

The other question I had was WHAT applications are used?

I'm with the vast majority using ForeFlight for EFB and flight planning. I also use the Aviation W&B, Nav Trainer, and a few other aviation apps. iBooks works fine as my document reader for those documents not already available in ForeFlight's internal Documents reader.

Are there different ones that do the same thing and do people have a preference?

Several EFB choices, but ForeFlight is, based on my observations as an itinerant instrument instructor, the overwhelming favorite.

 

[poadeleted20]

Once you get your ticket you can experiment with what you want in the cockpit, UNTIL then just use a jep paper logbook, paper sectional chart and manual (non-electronic) E6B.

Do you also recommend that high school and college students use a slide rule instead of an electronic calculator? Or perhaps a just dump all the calculation devices and use trig tables, pencil, and paper to do long multiplication and division? Maybe make those students also handwrite all their term papers instead of using a word processor or even a typewriter?

 

[Shawn]

Keep the Ipad outta the cockpit while you are training. My instructor said there was no problem if I wanted to use Foreflight, but I opted against it until I got my ticket and glad I did it that way. It is way too easy to get dependent on the technology without understanding the "why" of the way things are done and are calculated.

I am huge proponent of technology and now I won't fly without my Ipad and Stratus receiver but I would argue that you can take a steam gauges only pilot and introduce the technology pretty easy, but if you have a pilot that has only trained on an Ipad, G1000, and 430 and throw them in a steam gauges plane with only a paper chart they would be screwed!

...plus you need to know how to fully function when you Ipad suddenly goes dead!

 

[brcase]

Do you also recommend that high school and college students use a slide rule instead of an electronic calculator? Or perhaps a just dump all the calculation devices and use trig tables, pencil, and paper to do long multiplication and division? Maybe make those students also handwrite all their term papers instead of using a word processor or even a typewriter?

I have yet to find an electronic E6B that is as easy to use as the Manual one. for sure they are more accurate which can be handy for the knowledge test, but then you aren't going to be able to use the Ipad on the knowledge test.

BTW, the examiner I use most of the time says about 70% of the PPL applicants that show up with an Ipad fail. They are usually deficient in basic navigation skills. My last student did take his ipad but did the last 15 hours of training and some practice cross countries without it and did just fine. However I think he probably would have taken his checkride about 10 hours (some solo) sooner if he had waited to learn navigating with Foreflight after his checkride.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[kenjr]

I bought an iPad & ForeFlight pretty early in my training. I knew I was going to be using it at some point and wanted to get familiar with it. I never used it early on (pre-XC) because there was just no need. On our dual XC's my CFI brought his but I didn't use mine. I primarily used it early on to check TAF's, METAR's, etc...

I did 4 solo XC's - all long one's (3 stops) and I'd fly a leg or two with a map and then fly one with the iPad. Certainly then and even now I don't just turn it on and stare at it. I'll look at it for something (find a reference point, city, airport, whatever...) and turn it off.

I do a pretty thorough pre-flight with the map so I know where stuff is and I just write what I need down, including frequencies, on a piece of paper that I attach to the clip on the yoke. Done. Of course, I fly now with the 430W in the plane and I really don't use a paper chart because of the hassle...so when I need to see the chart, I use the iPad.

I could teach someone all they needed to know in sequential order all that you need to do to complete a NavLog with an electronic E6B in about 10 minutes. There's nothing to it - and it's way faster than the manual version. I have an engineering degree...I've used a slide rule. Work smarter not harder.

I thoroughly enjoy flying out the window...it keeps your head outside and your eyes sharp. You learn distances better and just get better finding stuff when you are practicing. And most importantly, you're always scouting that spot you'll point to if the you know what hits the fan. I'd rather have an eyeball on a spot than have something happen and go digging for an iPad and start dinking around with the 430W to figure out where to go.

My DPE loved talking iPad during my checkride. He could tell I wasn't dependent on it so that probably helped. He let me use it to bring up the weather charts in ForeFlight during the oral. For the XC I used the paper sectional of course. That said, he did let me bring up my iPad on the diversion (not to navigate with it but to look up some info about the airport). We also have a Stratus and he wanted to talk about that as well as he'd never used one. While it's definitely important to know how to do all this stuff without the technology it's not a bad idea to practice a little with it as well before you are out on your own. I wanted to navigate a few legs on my XC's the way I'd do them 'in real life'. That way, if I had any questions I could ask my CFI on our next lesson.

I use LogBook Ten Pro for a digital logbook. I like it a lot and it's nice that you can export your NavLog out of ForeFlight directly into the logbook. You'll have to make a few changes on hours and such (if you fly longer/shorter than what FF anticipated) but I like it alot. It has a nice homescreen that shows your total hours, PIC, instrument, dual, etc... and how many days your still current on landings.

I also found a great W&B app that allowed me to plugin all the data for my plane and even print it out if I want. I also subscribed to the FAR/AIM so that I always have the latest/greatest version on my iPad. That said, I believe FF has at least Parts 61/91 included in the documents section. I bought one with the Verizon connection (which you'll need to have anyway if you want to do GPS with the device - even if you don't activate it, you need that chip in there for GPS to even work) and can get on the web anywhere and check weather, etc... Of course, I have links to DUATS and Weathermeister.com on my main page to check those quickly.

 

[jmn444]

Ken Jr just summed up why I just ordered my ipad mini... I likely won't get to use it for many months to come in practice, and I have no misconceptions on the importance of learning the basics, but want to learn at the same time how the ipad can make it easier. It's nice from my perspective to see how both methods get me to the same "answer". I like the idea that I'm testing the results during training so that I can be more comfy with the gadget's benefits when it's all said and done.

 

[jmn444]

Wow... logbook ten pro seems a little pricey....

 

[kenjr]

Wow... logbook ten pro seems a little pricey....

Yeah, it is. But I use it on 2 iPads and it synchs up nice. I figure what the heck, I'll use it for years and it costs as much as a years worth of FF. It's not a subscription...one time cost. But, I looked at a few and for PPL type folks it was the best one I found.

 

[jmn444]

It looks slick, I'll prob go thru training on the paper log book, and look at that once I'm done. As much as I like tech, I'd like to have the nostalgia of the real logbook to hang onto.

 

[asgcpa]

I use my mini for in flight ops and training. I have 64 gigs. I think you can never have too much storage since the Ipad is it not expandable.

 

[AggieMike88]

It looks slick, I'll prob go thru training on the paper log book, and look at that once I'm done. As much as I like tech, I'd like to have the nostalgia of the real logbook to hang onto.

MyFlightbook is a free logbook app that is very useful when I fly. My paper logbook stays safely stashed away to prevent it's loss. Every 1st of the month, I copy my electronic entries from MyFlightbook.com website to paper.

 

[poadeleted20]

BTW, the examiner I use most of the time says about 70% of the PPL applicants that show up with an Ipad fail. They are usually deficient in basic navigation skills.

There is no reason for that other than bad instruction. An electronic chart is no different than a paper chart except it's a lot harder to make pencil lines on it (think about cards in bicycle spokes). Only problem is lack of instructor imagination. You just turn off the GPS so there's no blue airplane and make them do it just like with a paper chart.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yeah, it is. But I use it on 2 iPads and it synchs up nice. I figure what the heck, I'll use it for years and it costs as much as a years worth of FF. It's not a subscription...one time cost.

It also doesn't meet the FAA's published standards for pilot logbooks unless you print out the pages and the instructor signs them for each training session and endorsement. Biggest issue is lack of ability to detect changes.

 

[kenjr]

It looks slick, I'll prob go thru training on the paper log book, and look at that once I'm done. As much as I like tech, I'd like to have the nostalgia of the real logbook to hang onto.

I hear ya. I didn't buy it until I had my PPL. Figured better to find something to start now as opposed to a year from now and have to transfer all that stuff.

The other cool thing about LogBook Ten is that you can actually have someone 'sign' your logbook digitally. So, you setup your CFI or DPE in the app and then when you complete a lesson or a checkride they can literally digitally sign it. Of course, you'd probably want that in a paper book too (and that's where all mine is).

But, as someone mentioned - I keep my paper logbook tucked away somewhere safe.

 

[LDJones]

Do you also recommend that high school and college students use a slide rule instead of an electronic calculator? Or perhaps a just dump all the calculation devices and use trig tables, pencil, and paper to do long multiplication and division? Maybe make those students also handwrite all their term papers instead of using a word processor or even a typewriter?

Sorry, no comparison, Ron. I, too, think the classic E6B makes much more sense in the cockpit. It's much quicker and reliable than button pushing on a calculator. Once I spend a little time with my students showing them how I use it, they've all agreed.

 

[LDJones]

Get as much memory as you can afford...you can NEVER have too much. That said, 32GB would be my minimum for ForeFlight. That's what I started with and was adequate. But a year later I upgraded to 64GB, and a year after that I just bought a 128GB version!

There are a number of apps that are of benefit to a student pilot, from study guides, the AIM, and a great little app I use to demonstrate how VORs work (NavTrainer...no connection to it other than a happy user.) Go for it...you won't regret having it.

BTW, I have my students manually flight plan their flights, then do it in ForeFlight and compare what the FF wind engine has computed versus what they came up with. They're usually pretty darn close, unless they screwed up!

 

[LDJones]

It also doesn't meet the FAA's published standards for pilot logbooks unless you print out the pages and the instructor signs them for each training session and endorsement. Biggest issue is lack of ability to detect changes.

Maintain a paper logbook, then duplicate the entries into a digital version (I'd look hard at myflightbook.com), which will make totaling things much easier at 8710 time.

 

[brcase]

There is no reason for that other than bad instruction. An electronic chart is no different than a paper chart except it's a lot harder to make pencil lines on it (think about cards in bicycle spokes). Only problem is lack of instructor imagination. You just turn off the GPS so there's no blue airplane and make them do it just like with a paper chart.

I agree there is no reason to fail because they bring an Ipad. However when the examiner asks the applicant to plot a no wind Magnetic Course line to an airport and they are unable tell him what the magnetic heading is, it is a pretty easy fail.

The problem I see with using electronic charts for PPL training is they you need to not only learn the basics (plotting Magnetic and true course, pilotage, etc) but you also need to learn how to thoughly use most of the features of the software. This means there is much more to learn than if you just using a paper map.

BTW, both my examiner and I highly recommend electronic charts, just not for PPL training.
Like most have said her use them for preflight and post flight, but not in flight while learning. The learn how to use them in flight after you complete your traing.

Brian

 

[ChitDisturber]

Oh Ron..... where to start....

Do you also recommend that high school and college students use a slide rule instead of an electronic calculator? Or perhaps a just dump all the calculation devices and use trig tables, pencil, and paper to do long multiplication and division? Maybe make those students also handwrite all their term papers instead of using a word processor or even a typewriter?

I fully expect highschool and college students to be able to preform the math that the calculator is doing if I request it and without hesitation.


Well I am not a fan of making training EASY, I like them to learn the most BASIC level of doing a calculation, after their ticket if they want to use a iWhatever or calculator that's cool. And yes, I do teach the math behind the E6B too.

Same deal with W&B.

I'd rather them go into a check ride able to preform with just the bare basics, then have a DPE get a wild hair up his arse and not let them use their iToy and them get failed.


You want your training to be easy, poor choice, but thats your call, you want it to be through that's where learning the “old school” basics comes in.




Of course this is one of the things you learn when you successfully instruct enough guys to earn your gold seal.

It also doesn't meet the FAA's published standards for pilot logbooks unless you print out the pages and the instructor signs them for each training session and endorsement. Biggest issue is lack of ability to detect changes.

Really?????


Per FAR 61.51

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.
(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.
(iv) Use of night vision goggles in an aircraft in flight, in a flight simulator, or in a flight training device.
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:
(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or
(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

My online excel spreadsheet logbook meets all the requirements for FAR 61.51, when I get a BFR or something I simply print out a blank sheet, have the CFI fill it out, scan it, upload it into the cell and there ya go.


Detect changes??? I could just as easily make up a entire fake paper logbook, or change a 4 to a 8 and I dont see in 61.51 where it makes a issue on that subject.


My printed (then endorsed by yours truly) excel log has held up to inspection for numerous jobs related tasks, insurance stuff, check-rides, my ATP ride, etc.


Now for the student pilot who will be receiving a CFI signature after most of his flights, my excel logbook is more of a pain then it is worth, hence why I recommended staying with a paper log for the OP.


That said, there is NOTHING WRONG with a electronic log, infact I find it a better way of logging hours for higher time pilots and career guys.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sorry, no comparison, Ron. I, too, think the classic E6B makes much more sense in the cockpit. It's much quicker and reliable than button pushing on a calculator. Once I spend a little time with my students showing them how I use it, they've all agreed.

You're missing the point completely. Using in the cockpit the tool which is easiest to use in the cockpit is one thing. Rejecting for training new technology that the trainee will be using every flight starting with the flight after the practical test is quite another.

 

[poadeleted20]

Maintain a paper logbook, then duplicate the entries into a digital version (I'd look hard at myflightbook.com), which will make totaling things much easier at 8710 time.

Good plan. That creates a back-up, too.

 

[poadeleted20]

I agree there is no reason to fail because they bring an Ipad. However when the examiner asks the applicant to plot a no wind Magnetic Course line to an airport and they are unable tell him what the magnetic heading is, it is a pretty easy fail.

Please show me the Task in the PTS which says "demonstrates ability to plot magnetic course lines on paper charts". OTOH, the fact that someone uses an electronic device to determine the MC is no barrier to understanding what the required MH is -- that failure would fall on the instructor's head, not the trainee's. I'd like to reiterate what the head of AFS-800 said about this:

I would like to see the applicant use the same technique, process, program that they are going to use the day after the practical test. ...
The math is not what you are testing, does the applicant understand what the numbers mean and how they affect the flight he is about to take. What decisions did he make and what adjustments are to be made based on the information and computation results.

And although I disagreed with him at first, I've come to recognize the wisdom in his position.

 

[poadeleted20]

I fully expect highschool and college students to be able to preform the math that the calculator is doing if I request it and without hesitation.

How? Memorizing the log and trig tables? You're living in the last century. Or maybe you would require people to get their IR in a 6-pack plane before allowing them to fly with a G1000? Banning HSI's from IR training in favor of CDI's only? Perhaps we should require handpropping training before allowing people to have an electric starter? Tailwheel qualification before tricycle gear? :sheesh:

Really?????

Really.

Per FAR 61.51

Did you see that part in 61.51 about "acceptable to the Administrator"? The standards for that have been published in a couple of Advisory Circulars on electronic record keeping. I suggest you read them.

 

[EricBe]

It also doesn't meet the FAA's published standards for pilot logbooks unless you print out the pages and the instructor signs them for each training session and endorsement. Biggest issue is lack of ability to detect changes.

Hi, Ron.

I'm the author of MyFlightbook.com, and as far as I can tell, MyFlightbook is in fact compliant with Advisory Circular AC 120-78A, which means that it is valid for tracking signed flights and endorsements. It DOES actually detect if you change something meaningful in a flight entry. (i.e., adding an image to a flight or adding tach time entries is fine; modifying the flight time or the comments or the number of landings is not).

AC-120-78A seems to cover signatures and endorsements in electronic logbooks just fine. The bigger problem, IMO, is that the FAA doesn't provide any sort of certification or review, so the only thing I or other logbook providers can do is say "I believe I am compliant" (which I do believe, but my interpretation may not match theirs!) without any way of knowing whether the FAA will actually agree.

Note, though, that another thing you can do with an electronic logbook is upload a scan of a signed paper page (for either an endorsement or for a specific flight).

 

[LDJones]

Hi, Ron.

I'm the author of MyFlightbook.com, and as far as I can tell, MyFlightbook is in fact compliant with Advisory Circular AC 120-78A, which means that it is valid for tracking signed flights and endorsements. It DOES actually detect if you change something meaningful in a flight entry. (i.e., adding an image to a flight or adding tach time entries is fine; modifying the flight time or the comments or the number of landings is not).

AC-120-78A seems to cover signatures and endorsements in electronic logbooks just fine. The bigger problem, IMO, is that the FAA doesn't provide any sort of certification or review, so the only thing I or other logbook providers can do is say "I believe I am compliant" (which I do believe, but my interpretation may not match theirs!) without any way of knowing whether the FAA will actually agree.

Note, though, that another thing you can do with an electronic logbook is upload a scan of a signed paper page (for either an endorsement or for a specific flight).

Eric: Do you have direct import capabilities from Logbook Pro without going through the export intermediary? Just curious.

My biggest issue with Logbook Pro is no linkage between tail number and type, requiring both needing to be entered separately every time. The inevitably leads to errors. Does your service and apps link them?

 

[poadeleted20]

Hi, Ron.

I'm the author of MyFlightbook.com, and as far as I can tell, MyFlightbook is in fact compliant with Advisory Circular AC 120-78A, which means that it is valid for tracking signed flights and endorsements. It DOES actually detect if you change something meaningful in a flight entry. (i.e., adding an image to a flight or adding tach time entries is fine; modifying the flight time or the comments or the number of landings is not).

That's great. How does an instructor sign your logbook with a unique, traceable signature? Zululog is also compliant, but requires a paid subscription from the CFI as well as the trainee. You can be sure that I won't pay to subscribe to a bunch of different logging systems just so I can endorse everyone's logbook.

AC-120-78A seems to cover signatures and endorsements in electronic logbooks just fine. The bigger problem, IMO, is that the FAA doesn't provide any sort of certification or review, so the only thing I or other logbook providers can do is say "I believe I am compliant" (which I do believe, but my interpretation may not match theirs!) without any way of knowing whether the FAA will actually agree.

Actually, they do -- the operator has to take whatever system they want to use to their FSDO and get it approved. Once one operator gets that approval it's a lot easier for the next operator. That doesn't help the system developer, because they haven't worked out a system for blanket approval for all operators to use a pre-approved system.

 

[denverpilot]

Actually, they do -- the operator has to take whatever system they want to use to their FSDO and get it approved. Once one operator gets that approval it's a lot easier for the next operator. That doesn't help the system developer, because they haven't worked out a system for blanket approval for all operators to use a pre-approved system.

So you're saying if all the individual operators flooded them with requests they might actually figure out a way out of the red tape that they created? Or, it would logjam the entire approval process for a big rich operator who got to the party late, who has a rich uncle with the right people in his/her pocket, who'd turn up the political heat on the broken bureaucracy?

What date shall we all send in our requests simultaneously? I'll watch for it in my magazine from those folks who claim they're doing everything they can for their pilot-members.

LOL. What a sad joke. I signed real-estate papers electronically this year. If that industry figured it out, surely the FAA can. Real estate agents generally seem to be some of the least tech-savvy people in the business world for some reason.

 

[MikeELP]

... Real estate agents generally seem to be some of the least tech-savvy people in the business world for some reason.

Since the launch of the ObamaCare website, you're out of the basement!!!




Mike

 

[AggieMike88]

Since the launch of the ObamaCare website, you're out of the basement!!!

But we're going to keep the red stapler

 

[poadeleted20]

So you're saying if all the individual operators flooded them with requests they might actually figure out a way out of the red tape that they created?

It's possible. I know they're chewing on the problem already.

 

[MikeELP]

I'd like to reiterate what the head of AFS-800 said about this:

"I would like to see the applicant use the same technique, process, program that they are going to use the day after the practical test. ... The math is not what you are testing, does the applicant understand what the numbers mean and how they affect the flight he is about to take. What decisions did he make and what adjustments are to be made based on the information and computation results."

And I'd like to reiterate that that remains (what..over a year since you first started posting this "quote"?) an out-of-context emailed and otherwise unknown to everyone else but you opinion from the head of AFS-800 that he sent to who knows who... which you said was going to soon be a directive to the DPE's. Has that happened yet?

Without seeing the entire email (which I have asked you to produce but you never have..although you always seem to have that quote quite handy), he could have very well have prefaced that comment with something like "At the Instrument, Commercial and ATP levels..."

Until there is a clear directive from Flight Standards to the DPE's regarding use of EFB's that they are to allow it, it is best for any applicant to check with their CFI and/or DPE to ask what is expected and/or allowed. YMMV.

But above all....for those heading to a checkride...do NOT argue with the DPE on the day of your checkride by saying "Well...on the POA web board Cap'n Ron said that AFS800 said it was OK for me to use only my iPad and ForeFlight".


Mike

 

[poadeleted20]

And I'd like to reiterate that that remains (what..over a year since you first started posting this "quote"?) an out-of-context emailed and otherwise unknown to everyone else but you opinion from the head of AFS-800 that he sent to who knows who... which you said was going to soon be a directive to the DPE's. Has that happened yet?

Without seeing the entire email (which I have asked you to produce but you never have..although you always seem to have that quote quite handy), he could have very well have prefaced that comment with something like "At the Instrument, Commercial and ATP levels..."

He didn't. In fact, he was speaking directly to the PP-ASEL test.

Until there is a clear directive from Flight Standards to the DPE's regarding use of EFB's that they are to allow it, it is best for any applicant to check with their CFI and/or DPE to ask what is expected and/or allowed. YMMV.

But above all....for those heading to a checkride...do NOT argue with the DPE on the day of your checkride by saying "Well...on the POA web board Cap'n Ron said that AFS800 said it was OK for me to use only my iPad and ForeFlight".

Mike's post is partly good advice, and partly just pettiness. I've also talked to Inspectors in several FSDO's about this, and they are on the same page, so the word has clearly come down from high on this subject. Feel free to check this with your local FSDO, and please post here if they're saying something else. Please also report to your FSDO any DPE who makes up his/her own rules like "you have to use a paper flight log and an E6B for flight planning" or "no EFB's" because they have absolutely no authority to do that.

 

[EricBe]

Eric: Do you have direct import capabilities from Logbook Pro without going through the export intermediary? Just curious.

My biggest issue with Logbook Pro is no linkage between tail number and type, requiring both needing to be entered separately every time. The inevitably leads to errors. Does your service and apps link them?

Not direct, I'm afraid. If only because I've never bothered to buy Logbook Pro and reverse engineer it. :wink2:

There are actually a few issues that would make that difficult to do, mostly around getting your aircraft into the system first. For example, on MyFlightbook, you never enter information in a flight that is properly an attribute of the aircraft: every flight has a tailnumber, which is linked to a model, which defines things like category/class, highperformance, turbine, tailwheel, complex, etc. So importing means first getting your aircraft in order, and a simple designator like "PA28" with "ASEL" often isn't quite enough. That's where I like having the pilot's eyes on things.

But the flights themselves are pretty straightforward - more than anything, it's a matter of renaming the columns (and I have an item on my to-do list to do some of this automatically).

 

[EricBe]

That's great. How does an instructor sign your logbook with a unique, traceable signature? Zululog is also compliant, but requires a paid subscription from the CFI as well as the trainee. You can be sure that I won't pay to subscribe to a bunch of different logging systems just so I can endorse everyone's logbook.

Actually, they do -- the operator has to take whatever system they want to use to their FSDO and get it approved. Once one operator gets that approval it's a lot easier for the next operator. That doesn't help the system developer, because they haven't worked out a system for blanket approval for all operators to use a pre-approved system.

Hi, Ron. I've tried - my local FSDO refuses to do so. They point me to the AC and I'm on my own from there.

As for how they sign with a unique traceable signature, I have a doc that gives the gory details of my implementation (http://myflightbook.com/logbook/Public/CFISigs-2012-12.htm), but the medium (there is no short) answer is that I have two scenarios:
a) The CFI is a MyFlightbook account holder. The signature is unique and traceable because they must authenticate themselves to the system in order to sign.
b) The CFI is not a MyFlightbook account holder. The signature is a fingernail-scribble-on-an-iPhone/iPad/Android. Arguable neither traceable nor unique, but this is absolutely no different than the situation with paper. (Actually, it's more secure than paper, because with paper you can still use blank space to fill in additional flight attributes after it is signed, but on MyFlightbook, you can't do this).