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SerArris

Filing Flight Plan
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Aug 7, 2010
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Fostoria, Michigan
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SerArris
Hey all!
My name is Jason. I have been lurking here for a little bit and am slowly sifting through all the info on this site. I really enjoy reading and learning about people's experiences in aviation. I think it is nice when like-minded people can get together and share tips, advice, and life knowledge.

Anyway, I am hoping to start training Oct. 1st. I have wanted to fly as long as I can remember and even went so far as to take a Discovery Flight back in August of '01. It was a wonderful experience and I have had the fever ever since! I couldn't justify the cost at the time though. I have been busy working and hoping that at some point I could make it happen.

Fast forward to 2010. I have been in touch with multiple flight schools over the years and the hunger has grown exponentially! Recently, I have been visiting a local Cessna Pilot Center. It is 15 minutes from my house and the people there are helpful and friendly. I am sort of in a unique situation though. Without going into too many drawn out details (I see my first post is kind of long), I have 45k available to spend in training funds. 15k a year for 3 years. Pending funding approval, they have agreed to train me. They have a syllabus written up and it includes (pending my proficiency and ability to pass tests and checkrides), Private Pilot's Certificate, Instrument Rating, Commercial Single and Multi-Engine, CFI, CFII, and MEI ratings for a Grand Total of 45k. If I add them all up seperately, including tests and checkrides, it comes out to right around 51k. It appears I am getting a discount of some sort.

Anyway, I was hoping for some comments, suggestions, or advice. I was wondering if I can accomplish those things within that time frame and be a proficient pilot. My schedule allows me to train 3-5 days a week. Again, I welcome comments, criticism, and suggestions!
 
i went from zero to CFII-MEI in about 18 months, also flying 3-4 days per week if i remember right, so the schedule is definitely possible.
 
I agree with Tony -- no problem doing all that within the stated time frame, as long as you apply yourself to the task and spend enough time in the books between flights.
 
Welcome SerArris. It is nice to know there are still a few people out there as passionate about flying as I am (there are others on this Board as well). I agree with Cap'n Ron and Tony. Your plan is well within the realm of possibilities, and to me, it looks like a good price. Just don't pay in advance. I have seen multiple cases of flight schools getting people's money then going out of business, leaving the students high and dry.

Good luck!
 
I agree it is doable. I would expect you to end up with about 350 hrs more or less so it comes out to about $130/hr of flight time. A reasonable amount.

And I second the don't pay in advance suggestion. Besides the fragility of flight school economics it also limits your ability to switch schools and instructors.

A suggestion I always make and few people listen to is that it is beneficial to fly with multiple instructors and schools before you choose which one to use. An instructor who communicates with you is worth more than the cost of a few flights. In the early stages you will learn on every flight and the time and money will not be wasted.

If you get frustrated with an instructor or program, go try another.

Joe
 
Do NOT pay for anything in advance. It also sounds like you have passion but not experience (training commencing next month...) so be prepared for the possibility that you may not like it or it may not like you.
 
All good advice.

I've done all my ratings (pretty much what you want to do, but haven't yet gotten CFII and MEI) Part 61. I don't think that Part 141 offers a lot of advantages. The reality is that they want to lock you in and get your money, but you need to not be tied down and have flexibility. I'd do it as a pay-as-you-go thing.

$45k is probably about right for getting those ratings, too.
 
First of all, I want to thank everyone for their advice! It definitely gives me something to think about. Second, I totally agree about not paying up front but there is an issue with that. Basically, I am eligible for TAA (Trade Adjustment Assistance). To keep it short, I am able to receive 3 years of schooling, 15k a year for 3 years. So, 45k total. The money doesn't come from me. It is a benefit I want to take advantage of before I get too old and personally it is the perfect time for me to start. Anyway, I turn in paperwork outlining my goals, information from the school, start and end dates (I know that one is tough but they HAVE to have them), and a total cost, then I wait for approval. Once approved, they send the school 15k Oct 1st of this year, another 15k next Oct 1st, and the last 15k the following Oct 1st. I don't really have another option than to pay ahead. Year by year anyway.

Hey iFlyTwins! You live in Williamsport? Beautiful area. My wife's Grandparents live out by Montoursville. Love going there!

And steingar, you voiced what I have been thinking! It's in the back of my mind all the time. I feel like I have to try though. Only problem is, I have to choose and commit to something with no way to back out. I guess it's time to see what I am made of!

*Disclaimer - The above statements are all dependant on approval from some government bureaucracy... :incazzato:
 
I wouldn't pay for a lot in advance, but many places will give you a 5% or 10% discount for paying $500-$1000 in advance. If you like the school and can afford to lose $1000 if they kick the bucket, go for it. But do NOT ever pay more than $1000 in advance.
 
SerArris said:
And steingar, you voiced what I have been thinking! It's in the back of my mind all the time. I feel like I have to try though. Only problem is, I have to choose and commit to something with no way to back out. I guess it's time to see what I am made of!
Click to expand...

Then go take a discovery flight. Costs less than a hundred bucks, and should tell you what you want to know. It would be a pity to rook someone out of all that cash and blow it on something you don't like.
 
Hope it works for you and welcome to the board.
I personally would talk with the Chief pilot at the school you are thinking about. Tell him/her what you have in mind and tell them you would like to talk to some of the CFI's before making a decision. If they are a good school (IMHO), the Chief pilot would welcome the idea and set up "interviews" for you with them.
If you do get interviews set up, talk with them to see what THEIR goals are.
Are they about to leave to move up on the food chain?
What is their teaching philosophy?
Are they available when you are? (afternoons, weekends, etc..)
How do they feel about you flying with different CFI's?

Just a few questions you might want to talk over with them.

Good luck and keep us informed.
 
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Is Barry Sutton still operating schools at Pontiac and Lapeer?
 
iPulledALance - Great point and I agree BUT I don't have any control over how much in advance the flight school gets paid. If approved, and if everything goes how it is planned, then Oct. 1st 2010, 15k will be put into my account at the flight school, then Oct. 1st 2011, another 15k will be added to my account, and finally, Oct. 1st 2012, the final 15k will be put into my account at the flight school. It's out of my hands.

steingar - I did take a discovery flight back in August of '01. I was in awe! The only thing that has changed is my desire to fly. It has gotten stronger! I should have been more specific earlier. I don't doubt that I want to do it. I hope I have the ability to start and finish this.

MarkB - Awesome points! It is a small school with the owner as Chief, and 2 others as Instructors. I have talked and met with the owner and one other instructor. They are very helpful and accommodating. They always have time to answer questions and explain things pretty thoroughly. To answer the questions you have though, the instructors aren't planning on leaving. 2 of the instructors have over 5000 hours with one approaching 7000 I believe, and the other has about 1500 hours. Apparently teaching is what they love to do. As far as as flying with other instructors, I was told they definitely do that. The Chief Pilot said it sometimes helps seeing some things from a different perspective and they like to change things up a bit because it can help me to become more well-rounded.

iGismo - I don't think Sutton exists anymore. In Lapeer, it is now Lapeer Pilot Center (Which is where I hope to attend). I don't think they are open in Waterford anymore either. LPC is owned by Ray Larner, who seems to be a great guy!
 
SerArris said:
iPulledALance - Great point and I agree BUT I don't have any control over how much in advance the flight school gets paid. If approved, and if everything goes how it is planned, then Oct. 1st 2010, 15k will be put into my account at the flight school, then Oct. 1st 2011, another 15k will be added to my account, and finally, Oct. 1st 2012, the final 15k will be put into my account at the flight school. It's out of my hands.

steingar - I did take a discovery flight back in August of '01. I was in awe! The only thing that has changed is my desire to fly. It has gotten stronger! I should have been more specific earlier. I don't doubt that I want to do it. I hope I have the ability to start and finish this.

MarkB - Awesome points! It is a small school with the owner as Chief, and 2 others as Instructors. I have talked and met with the owner and one other instructor. They are very helpful and accommodating. They always have time to answer questions and explain things pretty thoroughly. To answer the questions you have though, the instructors aren't planning on leaving. 2 of the instructors have over 5000 hours with one approaching 7000 I believe, and the other has about 1500 hours. Apparently teaching is what they love to do. As far as as flying with other instructors, I was told they definitely do that. The Chief Pilot said it sometimes helps seeing some things from a different perspective and they like to change things up a bit because it can help me to become more well-rounded.

iGismo - I don't think Sutton exists anymore. In Lapeer, it is now Lapeer Pilot Center (Which is where I hope to attend). I don't think they are open in Waterford anymore either. LPC is owned by Ray Larner, who seems to be a great guy!
Click to expand...

I haven't heard from Barry in a while but he used to post here.

Perhaps you could arrange an escrow account with the FBO that pays them weekly or monthly. I would think any local bank could set that up.
 
SerArris said:
iPulledALance - Great point and I agree BUT I don't have any control over how much in advance the flight school gets paid. If approved, and if everything goes how it is planned, then Oct. 1st 2010, 15k will be put into my account at the flight school, then Oct. 1st 2011, another 15k will be added to my account, and finally, Oct. 1st 2012, the final 15k will be put into my account at the flight school. It's out of my hands.

steingar - I did take a discovery flight back in August of '01. I was in awe! The only thing that has changed is my desire to fly. It has gotten stronger! I should have been more specific earlier. I don't doubt that I want to do it. I hope I have the ability to start and finish this.

MarkB - Awesome points! It is a small school with the owner as Chief, and 2 others as Instructors. I have talked and met with the owner and one other instructor. They are very helpful and accommodating. They always have time to answer questions and explain things pretty thoroughly. To answer the questions you have though, the instructors aren't planning on leaving. 2 of the instructors have over 5000 hours with one approaching 7000 I believe, and the other has about 1500 hours. Apparently teaching is what they love to do. As far as as flying with other instructors, I was told they definitely do that. The Chief Pilot said it sometimes helps seeing some things from a different perspective and they like to change things up a bit because it can help me to become more well-rounded.

iGismo - I don't think Sutton exists anymore. In Lapeer, it is now Lapeer Pilot Center (Which is where I hope to attend). I don't think they are open in Waterford anymore either. LPC is owned by Ray Larner, who seems to be a great guy!
Click to expand...

I didn't mean my post as questions you should answer to ME, just as some things you should think about.
Total Time doesn't mean you will get along with them in a cockpit or that they are "good" instructors. I have known a few with thousands of hours and they couldn't teach someone to open a bag without three lessons. And others with just a few hundred that just had the knack for teaching.
Please remember that it is YOUR career that is in their hands and make sure that you get the most out of every minute of your time that is spent with them.
I think at some point most students (including me) have gotten into the "they are CFI they must know best" thinking and that isn't always correct.
Not trying to bash the people at the school you are thinking of, I don't know them and have no clue, but just want you to understand the "pitfalls" that myself and other students have fallen into before.
 
That would be a good idea but I guess I need to explain things further. The money for training comes from the Trade Readjustment Act (TRA http://www.doleta.gov/tradeact/ ). I don't actually see any money. Once my request for schooling gets approved (I hope), there is a contract drawn up between the Government (whether it is some combination of State and Federal or just one I'm not sure yet), Lapeer Pilot Center, and I. As I understand it, it basically states that they will release money to LPC (15k once a year, for up to 3 years = 45k total) and in return for that amount of money they will train me.

So, I know I shouldn't pay in advance BUT, I am not the one who is actually paying...
 
gismo said:
Is Barry Sutton still operating schools at Pontiac and Lapeer?
Click to expand...

SerArris said:
iGismo - I don't think Sutton exists anymore. In Lapeer, it is now Lapeer Pilot Center (Which is where I hope to attend). I don't think they are open in Waterford anymore either. LPC is owned by Ray Larner, who seems to be a great guy!
Click to expand...

Barry is still instructing somewhere in the Detroit area - He was one of the CFI's for Steve Tupper's AcroCamp movie, filmed at KPTK in May - I'm just not sure what his "normal" situation is.
 
markb5900 said:
I didn't mean my post as questions you should answer to ME, just as some things you should think about.
Total Time doesn't mean you will get along with them in a cockpit or that they are "good" instructors. I have known a few with thousands of hours and they couldn't teach someone to open a bag without three lessons. And others with just a few hundred that just had the knack for teaching.
Please remember that it is YOUR career that is in their hands and make sure that you get the most out of every minute of your time that is spent with them.
I think at some point most students (including me) have gotten into the "they are CFI they must know best" thinking and that isn't always correct.
Not trying to bash the people at the school you are thinking of, I don't know them and have no clue, but just want you to understand the "pitfalls" that myself and other students have fallen into before.
Click to expand...


Sorry about that. Just wanted people to know that I have asked questions and tried to gain as much info as possible! I appreciate the input very much. You are right. Just because someone has lots of hours doesn't mean they are good teachers. Well, there 3 instructors, so I can guess if I don't like one I can switch! I guess I won't really know until I start training with one right? The instructor who I have been talking to the most seems genuinely interested in helping me. He has spent quite a few hours of his personal time doing paperwork to help me get in there. Always available whenever I need him. To me, that says a lot about a person...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Barry is still instructing somewhere in the Detroit area - He was one of the CFI's for Steve Tupper's AcroCamp movie, filmed at KPTK in May - I'm just not sure what his "normal" situation is.
Click to expand...

I saw Barry Sutton a month ago for my commercial checkride. He's now at Oakland Flight Academy located at KPTK (Pontiac). They have contact information on their website. http://www.oaklandflightacademy.com Although, not everything is listed on their site. To my knowledge, he also has a citabria and a decathlon. I'd train with him if I was in that area.

Good luck on your endeavor too, SerArris and welcome to POA.
 
jxdrl said:
I saw Barry Sutton a month ago for my commercial checkride. He's now at Oakland Flight Academy located at KPTK (Pontiac). They have contact information on their website. http://www.oaklandflightacademy.com Although, not everything is listed on their site. To my knowledge, he also has a citabria and a decathlon. I'd train with him if I was in that area.
Click to expand...

Yep, they used the Citabria and the Super D, as well as a Pitts S-2B from elsewhere in the movie.
 
SerArris said:
Basically, I am eligible for TAA (Trade Adjustment Assistance). To keep it short, I am able to receive 3 years of schooling, 15k a year for 3 years. So, 45k total. The money doesn't come from me. It is a benefit I want to take advantage of before I get too old and personally it is the perfect time for me to start. Anyway, I turn in paperwork outlining my goals, information from the school, start and end dates (I know that one is tough but they HAVE to have them), and a total cost, then I wait for approval. Once approved, they send the school 15k Oct 1st of this year, another 15k next Oct 1st, and the last 15k the following Oct 1st. I don't really have another option than to pay ahead. Year by year anyway.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, is this money a grant or scholarship (aka, you will never be asked to repay the money) or is it a form of a student loan?
 
SerArris said:
Thank you very much Jonathan. I am looking forward to being a contributor here at some point.
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You already are, my friend.

Good luck in your aviation adventure.
 
Hey AggieMike88!
Honestly, I don't exactly know what you would classify it as. It is a benefit through the Federal Government for "dislocated workers", who have been "displaced by foreign competition". Although it is through the fed, it is distributed through the local unemployment agency (Michigan Works in my case). It doesn't have to be repaid and it is actually a lifetime benefit. For me, that means I don't have to use it now. I can use it 10-20 years from now. The only thing is, I have to be laid-off from work to use it. I am trying to get into school before I get called back to work because if I start school before I go back to work, I can continue schooling. If I don't finish school though, I lose my benefit.
 
If it is a grant or scholarship, make sure the paperwork actually has words to the effect that you do not have to repay the money.

What I don't have posted here on the Blue Board is that I'm an avid follower of Dave Ramsey and his teachings about money. And a big one is not taking on debt, especially for educational stuff when the long term outcome is not certain. And aviation jobs (especially airline pilots) definitely falls into that category.

That this "free" money is available to you is something to definitely look at. But read all of the fine print before you sign for it. This almost sounds a bit TANSTAAFL to me. As if there is a hidden catch. If there isn't, good. But make absotootly sure there isn't.

Finally, have a definite plan on what you want to do once you come out the other end. That the money can be used to obtain the hours and rating is good. But once you've obtained them, then what? Doesn't do much good to get all of this and you're still low man on the resume pile because there are more qualified humans than flying slots.

And what is your backup plan? If your current goal is the airlines or becoming a freight dog, what are you going to do if that isn't going to happen or not happen at all? Could you use some the money toward a business degree (associates or bachelors, or MBA if you already have a bachelors)?

I've learned the hard way that when I go chasing something without a plan, I always encounter "stupid" with zeros attached. But when I take a dream and set it to a plan, it becomes my vision. And a vision with a plan is easily turned into reality. And often within or below budget.
 
Trade Adjustment Assistance appears to be a grant program sponsored by the Department of Labor for workers displaced when their jobs were transferred overseas.
$45,000 should get you a lot of training. Depending on what kind of job you're after when you're done, you might want to be sure you can transfer some of that over to a place that teaches on bigger equipment.
Have fun and make the most of it.
 
SerArris said:
iPulledALance - Great point and I agree BUT I don't have any control over how much in advance the flight school gets paid. If approved, and if everything goes how it is planned, then Oct. 1st 2010, 15k will be put into my account at the flight school, then Oct. 1st 2011, another 15k will be added to my account, and finally, Oct. 1st 2012, the final 15k will be put into my account at the flight school. It's out of my hands.
Click to expand...

Given your later posts about the fact that it's money distributed from the fed, is that because they will only distribute it as such? If you are getting the money and then you have to distribute it, then you absolutely have a say in how it gets paid. If the fed gives the $15k to the flight school outright, then that's different.
 
The way I understand it, the money goes directly to the flight school. I will ask my "Contact Person" about it.
 
SerArris said:
The way I understand it, the money goes directly to the flight school. I will ask my "Contact Person" about it.
Click to expand...

The main thing is, ask about coordinating the distribution of the money to the flight school such that it does not all go there at once, but rather, is paid out in reasonable time proximity to the services rendered.

There have been a lot of flight schools which folded after receiving large advance payments from students, and those advances were never recovered.
 
SCCutler said:
The main thing is, ask about coordinating the distribution of the money to the flight school such that it does not all go there at once, but rather, is paid out in reasonable time proximity to the services rendered.

There have been a lot of flight schools which folded after receiving large advance payments from students, and those advances were never recovered.
Click to expand...


Good advice! I will definitely check into that. Thank you.
 
SCCutler said:
The main thing is, ask about coordinating the distribution of the money to the flight school such that it does not all go there at once, but rather, is paid out in reasonable time proximity to the services rendered.

There have been a lot of flight schools which folded after receiving large advance payments from students, and those advances were never recovered.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Investigate what I've done.

The school where I'm doing my primary training does provide a discounted "block rate" when you have money deposited in your acount with them. When it falls below a set amount, their system emails you an alert and you call to arrange more money to be transferred to them.

Since the entire training fund was going to be "out of pocket" money for me. I worked and scrimped and saved and eBayed and Craigs Listed a whole lot before I started. And I didn't start until I fully funded my planned budget.

This money is parked in a savings account in my bank.

As the school requests a "refill" of my account, I just dole out the minimum needed to "top off" the account and preserve the discounted rate.

While it's unlikely that US Flight Academy is gonna disappear or runaway with my money. But if that did occur, my exposure to loss is minimized.
 
Alright! Phones calls have been made and emails have been sent! First of all, the flight school is paid directly from the state. I am out of the loop on that one. Apparently, in a normal college setting, they pay out per semester...

As I was typing this the flight instructor called me back to try and clarify things a bit. They will bill the state every semester (every 3 months). Since he submitted a semester breakdown to the state (they prefer to see things broken down that way), that is how they will be billed. So, they will be paid $3750.00 every 3 months for 2 years and then 2 more semesters at $7500.00 a piece for the 3rd year. He said also said my training won't really follow how they broke it down by semester. Depending on how often I train, I may be able to finish faster than their timeline. He said they will just "float" me till they get paid again.
 
Looks like the risk will be reasonably compartmentalized, then. Good deal, and good luck.

Keep us posted on how it goes!
 
I definitely will. Thank you everybody for the advice, suggestions, and feedback. I will absolutely keep everyone updated. I will be keeping my fingers crossed while waiting for approval!
 
SerArris said:
Alright! Phones calls have been made and emails have been sent! First of all, the flight school is paid directly from the state. I am out of the loop on that one. Apparently, in a normal college setting, they pay out per semester...

As I was typing this the flight instructor called me back to try and clarify things a bit. They will bill the state every semester (every 3 months). Since he submitted a semester breakdown to the state (they prefer to see things broken down that way), that is how they will be billed. So, they will be paid $3750.00 every 3 months for 2 years and then 2 more semesters at $7500.00 a piece for the 3rd year. He said also said my training won't really follow how they broke it down by semester. Depending on how often I train, I may be able to finish faster than their timeline. He said they will just "float" me till they get paid again.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you got a good deal here. If it were Illinois and the money were coming from the State, the school would be much more worried about the State stiffing them than the other way around! :yes:
 
Quick update. Received notice today that my funding is approved so it looks like I will definitely be starting October 1st. Thanks again everyone for the advice! I will definitely be back with questions and letting people know my experiences, problems, and hopefully successes!
 
SerArris said:
Quick update. Received notice today that my funding is approved so it looks like I will definitely be starting October 1st. Thanks again everyone for the advice! I will definitely be back with questions and letting people know my experiences, problems, and hopefully successes!
Click to expand...
Congratulations on the funding. That sounds like a good deal for you. I am looking forward to hearing your impressions as you embark on this new experience!
 
The key is to be organized. If you are not ready for a flight, then do some ground. Ground is MUCH cheaper than just going up and having fun because you don't have a plan for the flight.

Try several instructors. You might train with several, or pick one, but it's worth knowing the different training styles.

Like has already been said, don't prepay more than $1000 or so. Usually, prepaid blocks have very limited refund options, even if the FBO/School stays in business.

The place being 15 mins from your house is ideal. If it's a long drive, it's easy to get discouraged by the trek.

Make sure you have study materials for self study. Self-Study is good to reinforce things your instructor has gone over, and is MUCH cheaper than repeating them with your instructor. I found I needed a total of about 300 hours of ground + self-study.

Also, consider financing a decent plane. My private took 84 hours before checkride. I did that in about 4 months. At $132/hobbs hr average, that's $2772/month in plane rental and fuel. Operating costs on a new C172 are around $100/tach hour. New means less will wear out during your training, and you'll have warranty, and maybe even some of your flight training included for free from the manufacturer. Alternatively, buying a used plane can be even cheaper, but you have to put aside more money for when it breaks, and you have to pick wisely to have the right equipment for your missions.

When I calculated it out, I would have saved about $10k if I'd bought my own plane.
 
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