Interesting Scenario

[Aztec Driver]

So, you're approaching an airport with RNAV approaches to both ends of the runway, as well as a LOC approach to one side. You flight plan, taking note that the only approaches authorized at night, when you will be landing, are the LOC and RNAV to the opposite end of the runway than the wind favors. And by "favors," I mean15G25 knots almost straight down the other way.

You also see that the ceiling is 2000 feet, with pattern round 1200, so you know you can use the opposite runway, and fly the pattern and land on the appropriate runway.

You also note that "circling at night is not authorized," so you know you will have to either cancel IFR and have VFR minimums, or let ATC know your intentions to break off the approach and do a pattern with a visual approach.

I believe those are the proper legal ways to get in to the airport, but...

Let us assume that, when you arrive in this busy airspace, that ATC directs you to the initial approach fix for the wind preferred runway, and further clears you for that approach. You hear that he had already cleared the aircraft in front of you for the same approach earlier, which the other aircraft did.

Do you correct the approach controller about this approach not being authorized at night? Do you gladly accept the approach, considering it means less re-configuring and circling in the pattern in windy bumpy nighttime conditions? Do controllers have the authority to authorize an approach that has a restriction of that type?

How about a slight amendment? The weather is now 1300 BKN, 2000 overcast, 10SM vis, and the wind is about the same. This time, you ask the controller if he can authorize that particular approach, and he gives it to you.

Any difference in thoughts?

 

[Velocity173]

You decide if you can do the approach based on weather. Not the controller. If it's uncontrolled and circling is NA at night, once again the controller doesn't care about that at an uncontrolled airport. It's up to you to comply with that restriction.

 

[James331]

I'm not going to take a NA approach, period.

With your cleared for the NA at night approach, I wouldn't light the other guy up, I'd just say you're looking for the XX approach via XX IF.

Ceiling of 1300, it's MVFR, no biggie, I'll just break out, enter the downwind VFR and land into the wind, cancel on the ground.


In my experience, for uncontrolled airports, ATC always says "advise weather and type approach".

 

[frfly172]

You are usually given the approach you ask for. It's up to you to fly the approach and follow the restrictions on the approach.

 

[luvflyin]

Like everyone said, it is the pilots sole responsibility to comply with what's on the Approach Plate. I would look closely at WHY circling is not authorized at night. Yeah, you're going to cancel and proceed VFR so you're not actually operating with a "circle to land" clearance but that don't change that you are circling to land on the other runway. I might think twice before cancelling with ATC before I'm on the ground. Stuff can happen with winds gusting to 25 and knowing that you can "miss" and get the hell out of there is a nice card to have up your sleeve. The 1300' ceiling adds to the discussion. Is there a Surface Area? Do you have a particular Airport in mind here? If so what is it?

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Sounds like poor planning to me. First I would try not to paint myself in a corner like that. 1200 MSL or AGL on the TPA? If it is AGL, that is a pretty high traffic pattern for recips. But in either weather scenario I would breakout and say, "Cancelling IFR"

 

[Aztec Driver]

Sounds like poor planning to me. First I would try not to paint myself in a corner like that. 1200 MSL or AGL on the TPA? If it is AGL, that is a pretty high traffic pattern for recips. But in either weather scenario I would breakout and say, "Cancelling IFR"

Assuming facts not in evidence. 1200 MSL. I have not specified what option I actually performed. I had all information pertinent to the flight and had a perfectly aligned approach and runway at an airport a short distance away as an alternate.

And, for all you other folks, if you will read the scenario, I detailed what the legal options were. My question was, basically, do controllers have the authority to dismiss restrictions on an approach, which I did not think they did. As far as why the restriction for no circling at night, there is a ridge to the south side of the airport that probably interferes.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

My question was, basically, do controllers have the authority to dismiss restrictions on an approach, which I did not think they did.

Ah then no, that is up to you if you can accept an approach or not.

 

[aterpster]

As far as why the restriction for no circling at night, there is a ridge to the south side of the airport that probably interferes.

Circle to land is never restricted at night for such a reason. Where it is restricted at night is because there is an issue with obstacles penetrating the visual segment for the runway that you would be circling to.

Sometimes flight inspection will find circling on one side of the airport to be unacceptable (day and night) even though the circling area meets criteria. They have the final authority.

They did just that at Heber City, Utah (36U) several years ago.

 

[Velocity173]

Assuming facts not in evidence. 1200 MSL. I have not specified what option I actually performed. I had all information pertinent to the flight and had a perfectly aligned approach and runway at an airport a short distance away as an alternate.

And, for all you other folks, if you will read the scenario, I detailed what the legal options were. My question was, basically, do controllers have the authority to dismiss restrictions on an approach, which I did not think they did. As far as why the restriction for no circling at night, there is a ridge to the south side of the airport that probably interferes.

This is an uncontrolled field correct? They don't and can't issue circling instructions to an uncontrolled field. So yes, they can clear you for the approach. If you can't accept the approach because of the circling restriction at night then request the approach to the opposite runway.

 

[Fearless Tower]

You are usually given the approach you ask for. It's up to you to fly the approach and follow the restrictions on the approach.

'
Not necessarily. If it is a busier airport (aircraft being sequenced in) you will get the approach that is in use and it is up to you to request a different approach which you may or may not get.

If it is a quiet airport without any traffic, Approach may preemptively ask you what approach you would like.

 

[luvflyin]

Assuming facts not in evidence. 1200 MSL. I have not specified what option I actually performed. I had all information pertinent to the flight and had a perfectly aligned approach and runway at an airport a short distance away as an alternate.

And, for all you other folks, if you will read the scenario, I detailed what the legal options were. My question was, basically, do controllers have the authority to dismiss restrictions on an approach, which I did not think they did. As far as why the restriction for no circling at night, there is a ridge to the south side of the airport that probably interferes.

Controllers base Approach clearances on "known traffic." The rules are very specific on that. In their book of rules it specifically notes that compliance with the notations on the Approach chart is the pilots responsibility.

 

[luvflyin]

Circle to land is never restricted at night for such a reason. Where it is restricted at night is because there is an issue with obstacles penetrating the visual segment for the runway that you would be circling to.

Sometimes flight inspection will find circling on one side of the airport to be unacceptable (day and night) even though the circling area meets criteria. They have the final authority.

They did just that at Heber City, Utah (36U) several years ago.

Was that in response to an accident?

 

[MAKG1]

Jeez, you don't think these thing are NA for fun, right?

Under conditions given, it doesn't matter what you're cleared for. Landing at that airport under the given conditions is stupid. Divert.

It's just as stupid as landing at a closed airport because you were cleared to it.

Yes, it might be legal VFR. Legal and smart are not the same.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Under conditions given, it doesn't matter what you're cleared for. Landing at that airport under the given conditions is stupid. Divert.

Please explain how you came to that conclusion based solely on the info given.

 

[aterpster]

Was that in response to an accident?

No. It was the first flight inspection when the original approach went to flight inspection. Because of the high MDA the designers could clear the hills south of the runway as well to the north. The flight inspection pilot didn't like it so he told the designers to prohibit circling to the south.

This was under the old circling criteria. Any revision these days would require a much larger circling area for CAT C.

 

[MAKG1]

Please explain how you came to that conclusion based solely on the info given.

Circling at night is NA because there are obstructions. Often terrain. Not just to make an inconvenience. Ever.

Approaches are NA because something doesn't work. Maybe the runway is closed or has cranes. Maybe there is opposing traffic at night. It's never done for fun.

If you don't know why these are NA, it's stupid to assume it's for no reason or that that reason doesn't apply to you.

Lots of things are legal but stupid. Flying into an airport in MVFR at night when you can't get in legally IFR qualifies. So does a 0/0 takeoff under Part 91. And for similar reasons.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Circling at night is NA because there are obstructions. Often terrain. Not just to make an inconvenience.

Did you miss the part in the scenario where the field is actually VFR (ceiling 2000', TPA 1200'?

We aren't talking circling mins here.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Circling at night is statistically high hazard. If I thought I could do it safely, Id cancel and land on the wind aligned runway VFR. Otherwise, go somewhere else. You cant stay IFR and circle to land on an a approach that says NA at night! Thats a rule you cant break. Some neighbor worried about noise abatement at night is likely to complain and they might have to do something to you. But even if you dont get caught, ya still cant do it!

 

[MAKG1]

Did you miss the part in the scenario where the field is actually VFR (ceiling 2000', TPA 1200'?

We aren't talking circling mins here.

No, didn't miss it.

Resorting to MVFR at night when IFR doesn't work requires thoroughly understanding the reasons. If you don't, you can get a very rude surprise.

For all you know, the circling mins might be that high. If there is any terrain around, that's common.

We don't know the airport, but I strongly suspect terrain is a factor here. The IFR restrictions sure read like it.

 

[Fearless Tower]

No, didn't miss it.

Resorting to MVFR at night when IFR doesn't work requires thoroughly understanding the reasons. If you don't, you can get a very rude surprise.

For all you know, the circling mins might be that high. If there is any terrain around, that's common.

We don't know the airport, but I strongly suspect terrain is a factor here. The IFR restrictions sure read like it.

Ok, just so we're clear - you are making a bold statement based on assumptions and facts not in evidence. Ok. Using your assumptions, I would agree with you.

 

[MAKG1]

Ok, just so we're clear - you are making a bold statement based on assumptions and facts not in evidence. Ok. Using your assumptions, I would agree with you.

I am making a bold statement ABOUT facts not in evidence.

The really important one is that the airport is safe for MVFR operations at night.

Flying requires knowing that it is free of obstructions, not assuming it. Especially if there is some reason to believe that might be a factor, such as IFR restrictions at night.

 

[Captain]

Sounds like the better move would be to shoot the approach to the runway favored by the winds as long as you're VFR by the FAF you're legal and safe.