Interesting Comparison of Cessna & Cirrus

And with an on-board computer that eliminates all the left-turning tendencies normally associated with a propeller-driven airplane, and makes it fly like a jet.

Just a thought -- how come the Air Force and Navy do ab initio in T-6II's? Don't they do 300 KIAS with 1000 hp up front?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
One word: Gaston's. :D
That's the biggest problem with some of these planes - They're difficult to get in and out of Gaston's!

A prospective pilot applicant was taking his/her check ride with the examiner.
At some point the examiner pulled the power to simulate an emergency landing.
After an unsuccessful simulated emergency landing and climb back to altitude, the examiner pointed out a field to the applicant and asked, "What is wrong with that field?
The applicant looked at the field and said, "Oh, I could get it in there, but I wouldn't be able to get it out."
To which the examiner replied, "Who said anything about getting out?"
 
Hmmm... an interesting back-and-forth debate here, with a lot of good points on both sides. Henning, I like your point about more time in your ultimate goal being better. That makes sense - you get to know the plane and its nuances better.

OTOH, there is something to be said about starting out in a trainer and moving up gradually as your skills and knowledge develop. In thinking about it, I see this approach used much more over a wide variety of training regimens... when learning to drive, they don't typically start you out in a Camaro or Mustang, you learn in a compact or small sedan. The counterpoint to this might be pointing out that this might be why you see so many teenagers wrapping the Camaro/Mustang that mommy and daddy bought them as soon as they got their license around a tree. It could be argued that had they been trained in this vehicle from day one, it would be less likely that they would wreck it. Yeah, there might be some truth to that, but at the same time, what would happen if they learned the basics and the rules of the road in the basic car, then got more training in high performance car? Not much data has been compiled on this, I imagine (haven't looked, so I don't know for sure... I'm just speculating here), as additional training isn't a requirement. As an aside, can you imagine how much cheaper our auto insurance would be if people were required to get additional training for each class of car they were going to drive? It is kind of scary to think about the fact that someone who does all of their driving in a Ford Festiva with an automatic tranny is perfectly legal to jump into an F-250 extended cab dualie with a 5-speed manual and a turbo diesel engine without anyone pointing out some of the things to look for when driving the different class of car.

Anyway, I digress. To bring this back to an aviation context, I was talking to an Air Force instructor on the T-1 Jayhawk a few weeks back. He said that for about the first 40-50 hours, Air Force student pilots are learning in DA-20's. If they don't wash out of that training, then they move in to the T-6II, where they first do some simulator rides before getting into the real plane. After about 100 hours of total time (IIRC), students then move to either the T-38 (if they're assigned to fighters) or the T-1 (if they're assigned to transport/cargo/bombers). After quite a bit of time in the T-1/T-38 (I don't remember the precise amount of time), they move into the actual airplane they're assigned to, and begin simulator and in-flight training in those.

Now, I'm no expert on the USAF training regimen, and granted, they are not training any schmuck with money in his/her wallet, but it seems to me that if they are training their pilots incrementally instead of just putting them into the ultimate goal airplane (or tool shed, if they're assigned to fly the UAV's), that should be the model to be emulated. The USAF, and USAAF before them, has been training pilots for a long, long time, and if this is the method they choose to use after years of experience of trying different things, I think that really says something.

Now, all that being said, let me qualify my statements by saying that I am not a CFI, but hope to be one eventually. I'm offering this up as something that seems logical to me, and I'm definitely open to debate on this topic.

To bring this all back around to the original post, I don't see anything wrong with the Cirrus SR-20 as a primary trainer, especially if the ultimate goal is to fly an SR-22. It would be a good platform to learn the basics and the avionics suite early on, then once you have some of the basic knowledge out of the way, you can step up into the big brother. Now, I've never flown either, though I hope to soon, so if someone has flown both, I'd like to hear your take on this suggestion.
 
If the DA-40 was the final airplane the pilot was going to fly, and if the air force was writing the insurance and paying for the cost of trading up, would they have started the student in the DA-40?

Hmmm... an interesting back-and-forth debate here, with a lot of good points on both sides. Henning, I like your point about more time in your ultimate goal being better. That makes sense - you get to know the plane and its nuances better.

OTOH, there is something to be said about starting out in a trainer and moving up gradually as your skills and knowledge develop. In thinking about it, I see this approach used much more over a wide variety of training regimens... when learning to drive, they don't typically start you out in a Camaro or Mustang, you learn in a compact or small sedan. The counterpoint to this might be pointing out that this might be why you see so many teenagers wrapping the Camaro/Mustang that mommy and daddy bought them as soon as they got their license around a tree. It could be argued that had they been trained in this vehicle from day one, it would be less likely that they would wreck it. Yeah, there might be some truth to that, but at the same time, what would happen if they learned the basics and the rules of the road in the basic car, then got more training in high performance car? Not much data has been compiled on this, I imagine (haven't looked, so I don't know for sure... I'm just speculating here), as additional training isn't a requirement. As an aside, can you imagine how much cheaper our auto insurance would be if people were required to get additional training for each class of car they were going to drive? It is kind of scary to think about the fact that someone who does all of their driving in a Ford Festiva with an automatic tranny is perfectly legal to jump into an F-250 extended cab dualie with a 5-speed manual and a turbo diesel engine without anyone pointing out some of the things to look for when driving the different class of car.

Anyway, I digress. To bring this back to an aviation context, I was talking to an Air Force instructor on the T-1 Jayhawk a few weeks back. He said that for about the first 40-50 hours, Air Force student pilots are learning in DA-20's. If they don't wash out of that training, then they move in to the T-6II, where they first do some simulator rides before getting into the real plane. After about 100 hours of total time (IIRC), students then move to either the T-38 (if they're assigned to fighters) or the T-1 (if they're assigned to transport/cargo/bombers). After quite a bit of time in the T-1/T-38 (I don't remember the precise amount of time), they move into the actual airplane they're assigned to, and begin simulator and in-flight training in those.

Now, I'm no expert on the USAF training regimen, and granted, they are not training any schmuck with money in his/her wallet, but it seems to me that if they are training their pilots incrementally instead of just putting them into the ultimate goal airplane (or tool shed, if they're assigned to fly the UAV's), that should be the model to be emulated. The USAF, and USAAF before them, has been training pilots for a long, long time, and if this is the method they choose to use after years of experience of trying different things, I think that really says something.

Now, all that being said, let me qualify my statements by saying that I am not a CFI, but hope to be one eventually. I'm offering this up as something that seems logical to me, and I'm definitely open to debate on this topic.

To bring this all back around to the original post, I don't see anything wrong with the Cirrus SR-20 as a primary trainer, especially if the ultimate goal is to fly an SR-22. It would be a good platform to learn the basics and the avionics suite early on, then once you have some of the basic knowledge out of the way, you can step up into the big brother. Now, I've never flown either, though I hope to soon, so if someone has flown both, I'd like to hear your take on this suggestion.
 
Procedures and discipline, folks. This isn't a twin turbine or anything
 
I don't know of one in flight breakup of a Cirrus either. As for a 172 an instructor I had trained with and who's dad I know from Angel Flight died in this one. I don't know if it was due to improper assembly or what but it was an in flight breakup.

The ratio of fatal to overall accidents tracks pretty well with VS0^2 with the exception of Diamond which is a lot better. I don't know how the fit looks if gross weight is also taken into account but that would be interesting. If you want to say that lower stall speeds give lower kinetic energy on landing and hence aids survivability then I agree. I think the Peterson 260SE is great in that respect. However, that isn't a Cirrus specific comment. It applies to the Corvalis too and to a lot of other very good aircraft. Of course high wing loading makes for better crosswind capability and a smoother ride in turbulent conditions. Generally though this is done for higher cruise speed which translates into increased utility if speed of travel is a big part of your mission profile.

Comparing the safety of a plane used for local flights and training (172) to a plane predominantly flown for travel (SR22) is invalid. A better comparison would be the SR22 to the C210, COL3/4, Mooney or BE36.

On your blog you show a poor knowledge of kinetic energy. If you hold a 182 right at stall you are at about 4900 fpm speed vs. the 1600 fpm you quote for the Cirrus. Note that the Cirrus number is what you would really get while the 182 number is a best case if you can be at stall right at impact. Misjudge it and you are worse. Damn the chute on cost (initial and maintenance), space and weight but if you claim it is ineffective you are at best ignorant. If you need to sell against CAPS then don't dismiss CAPS. Rather, point out that in many accidents it is irrelevant and that your product chose to focus on accident mitigation in those other areas. As an example, CAPS is pointless in a CFIT situation. There are only about 4 fatal mid air collisions a year so it is also pretty irrelevant there because the odds of an occurrence of that type are so low.

Paul


Regarding, my blog post:
http://stevewilsonblog.com/2009/04/16/dead-pilots-dont-lie.aspx
and statement “There's not a single recorded instance of a strutted-wing single engine Cessna having an airframe failure or flight control malfunction mid-air.”

…please prove my statement untrue. If you can, I want to correct it.

Visually impressive list Ron, and misleading to the reader:

ANC06FA048B – Midair.
NYC05LA002B – Midair.
LAX06LA056B – Midair.
DEN99LA067A – Midair.
MIA99FA126B – Midair.
MIA03LA038B – Collission while taxiing.
SEA01LA122B – Midair.
LAX98LA253B – Midair.
NYC00LA081B – Midair.
CHI04LA104A – Midair.
ATL98FA060B– Midair.
MIA01FA028B– Midair.
FTW01FA025A– Midair.
MIA03FA124A– Midair.
FTW01FA058B– Midair.
CHI99LA040A – Midair.
NYC00FA058A – Midair.
DEN03MA035B – Midair.

Not a single example you present is a failure of the aircraft. And in the case of MIA02FA066 with a corroded aileron cable, the aircraft was proven derelict and shoddily maintained, let alone the fact is had over 7,000 hours total time and was 25 years old. The part did not "fail" per design nor was not properly maintained.

Please try harder.
 
Paul, does anyone know what they were doing before the breakup? An intentional spin wouldn't make sense being so low and the plane should be no where near Va, let alone enough force to break up.

I was living in Buford at the time but don't recall this incident. I didn't return to flying for another fifteen months later.

Most of my CFI training was done out at Monroe as it is a pretty quiet airport during the week but has a fair amount of glider ops on weekends. The significant part is I'm not sure there was a single aircraft at that school that had not been overstressed. A couple instructors who had been around there a while had all but assured this had happen.
 
Paul, does anyone know what they were doing before the breakup? An intentional spin wouldn't make sense being so low and the plane should be no where near Va, let alone enough force to break up.

I had used the instructor before and found him one of the more conservative and professional. He was also a policeman. His dad is a long time pilot. I heard a rumor about an alignment pin being in place on the wing in place of where a bolt should be. However, the NTSB report makes no mention of that. IIRC the plane wasn't that old. Elite had one of the nicer fleets in the Atlanta area. I had rented a 182 from them before.

From everything I heard it was supposed to be a normal training flight. I never heard of Elite allowing reckless instruction other than one case where they let an instructor go because they felt he wasn't acting in a safe and professional manor. If it was pilot induced overstress I feel it must have been unintentional. In a 172 I find that difficult to imagine without weather being a factor.

Paul
 
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