Integrity?

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My brother wants me to teach his son to fly. I know (never visually witnessed)that my nephew takes medication for a behavioral condition (probably ADD). I was concerned so I told my brother something like

Me: "look man, your son may have trouble getting a medical. Both the condition and the medication are DQ factors"

Him: "I know he cant solo while taking the medication, but we intend to get him off of it in the near future. The FAA won't hold that against him that he took it as a child".

He was very defensive and unaware of the rules. I know he will refuse to disclose to the AME when the time comes. My questions are, what is my Liability? Should I refuse to teach him? I don't have documented proof that he uses medication nor do I want access this information. His medical info is between him, his father and the AME. I am thinking of raising the issue again but it is a very uncomfortable talk. Last time I took the stance as his CFI and was very forthcoming in my concerns.

Anyone have similar experience with students that had medicals but you felt they may not be fit to have one based on what you have heard only?
 
Forget the rules for a second, how does the kid behave? Switched on, smart, mature? Airplane crazy or just meh? Got a LSA airplane handy? Tell your brother to buy the family a Cub, problem solved.
 
Really does not matter what the father wants. I would sit the kid down and ask him if you wants to be a pilot. If he says no, nothing his dad can say will change this.

Next I would send him to a doctor like Dr. Bruce. Have him checked over and see if he is save to fly. If the doctor says no, then you are off the hook.

Tony
 
Take your nephew flying see if he likes it.

Let your brother worry about the FAA, your job is flight instruction and keeping family peace.

Integrity would give your nephew the benefit of the doubt. ;)
 
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Geico266 said:
Take your nephew flying see if he likes it.

Let your brother worry about the FAA, your job is flight instruction and keeping family peace.
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I'll say yes to this but:

I'd tell your brother up front that you'd love to teach young buck how to fly, and you'd get him to near solo. But, at that point, Dad and Buck will need to find an impartial CFI to sign off for solo and complete the the training.

Let Dad and Buck deal with the FAA.
 
Unregistered said:
Anyone have similar experience with students that had medicals but you felt they may not be fit to have one based on what you have heard only?
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I have had a couple of trainees who disclosed a disqualifying medical condition, and stopped training rather than lie on the medical. However, I've never had anyone ask me to go along with them in lying to the FAA. If someone did, I would a) counsel against that course of action, b) refuse to fly with them if they declined to accept my counsel, and c) if they got that medical after lying, report them as a safety hazard to the FAA. If nothing else, there is no "trainee-instructor confidentiality," and I would not want to be held accountable before either the FAA or a civil court for knowingly participating in their deceit.
 
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Bill Jennings said:
I'd tell your brother up front that you'd love to teach young buck how to fly, and you'd get him to near solo.
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I'd do that happily, and hope they go through the process to get a legal medical certificate issuance so I can sign him off for solo legally and with a clear conscience.

But, at that point, Dad and Buck will need to find an impartial CFI to sign off for solo and complete the the training.
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So they can conceal their falsification from that other instructor? I'm not going to sandbag another instructor that way. That's the "integrity" part of the equation.
 
Here we go again. Similar post yesterday. Again, seek counsel of trained professionals and not armchair analysts. Talk to Dr Bruce Chien. If it were me, I wouldn't want to solo someone that may end up hurting or killing himself or others because of a known medical condition.
 
I should say that I appreciate the father's desire to avoid the expensive psychiatric evaluation the FAA would require in this case, but this isn't a situation where a lay parent can legally substitute his own uneducated judgment (or even that of a non-aviation medical professional) of the child's mental state to act as a pilot in command for that of aeromedical professionals.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd do that happily, and hope they go through the process to get a legal medical certificate issuance so I can sign him off for solo legally and with a clear conscience.

So they can conceal their falsification from that other instructor? I'm not going to sandbag another instructor that way. That's the "integrity" part of the equation.
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Yeah, it's iffy, I'll agree. But, who knows how many students you or any other CFI has had that falsified info without your knowledge. I'd bet a number. How the student deals with his medical issues and FAA aeromedical really isn't the business of the CFI. You just need a vailid student medical to sign off for solo and after.
 
The input has been what I expected it would be.

Sidenotes.

I have flow with the young buck. He is a natural as far as the stick is concerned. He may struggle with the knowledge of it all.

Buck is 14 and he wants to "go to the airforce". If I tell him the truth about his chances flying in USAF, he will certainly tell dad. This would be a big conflict. I guess I will cross the conflict bridge when it comes.
I hope he tells the truth to the AME. Until he does otherwise, I don't actually know what will unfold.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Yeah, it's iffy, I'll agree. But, who knows how many students you or any other CFI has had that falsified info without your knowledge. I'd bet a number.
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I wouldn't take that bet, but even if they did, I would not have an integrity issue over what that trainee concealed from me. However, in this case, the CFI knows because the trainee's father told him. That changes everything.

How the student deals with his medical issues and FAA aeromedical really isn't the business of the CFI.
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Yes, it is. You're signing off someone to go fly an airplane all by himself. That requires you to decide that his judgment and decision-making are acceptable for aeronautical purposes. If you know he will lie and break rules in order to get what he wants, you are professionally bound to refuse to sign him off for solo. Going along with such deceit and illegal behavior is a sign of your own lack of the title of this thread -- Integrity.

In any event, let's say you go along with it, and the kid does something looney and crashes. The FAA starts investigating, and finds the kid's medical record of ADD/ADHD which was not disclosed. They're going to ask the instructor involved if he had any idea about this. Now the instructor has to either admit complicity or lie to the FAA. And if the instructor says "no," what happens when the FAA realizes the instructor is the kid's uncle -- you think they'll believe the instructor? And what happens to the instructor if the father (who already has a demonstrated propensity to go along with lying to get what he wants since the kid got the medical) says, "Oh, sure, my brother knew all about it but didn't say a thing against it." :yikes: No, thank you -- I'm not putting myself in that potential jackpot.
 
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Unregistered said:
Buck is 14 and he wants to "go to the airforce". If I tell him the truth about his chances flying in USAF, he will certainly tell dad. This would be a big conflict.
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If you can't tell your brother the facts about military medical requirements without causing "a big conflict", then you don't want to have any part in these proceedings at all. Take Nancy Reagan's advice -- "Just say no." If you have to tell your brother something to avoid conflict over the issue, tell him that while you are happy to let Buck fly with you for fun, you have a policy of not actually giving training to close relatives (even if that's a new policy you just made up, as long as you haven't trained other relatives previously).

And I must say this story makes me feel lucky to have the rabbinical brother I have. He and I have disagreed deeply about many things in the past, but it's never caused "a big conflict" since we each respect each other's positions even if we don't agree on them. I can't imagine either of us asking the other to go along with something we knew violated the other's personal integrity.
 
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Unregistered said:
My brother wants me to teach his son to fly. I know (never visually witnessed)that my nephew takes medication for a behavioral condition (probably ADD). I was concerned so I told my brother something like

Me: "look man, your son may have trouble getting a medical. Both the condition and the medication are DQ factors"

Him: "I know he cant solo while taking the medication, but we intend to get him off of it in the near future. The FAA won't hold that against him that he took it as a child".
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Not knowing the exact situation, I can't say for certain whether your nephew would qualify or not and whether he would lie on a medical. HOWEVER, I will say this: what looks like a disqualifying condition at first glance may not be after investigation. Even if it is, documentation can be assembled, waivers obtained, limits removed... if he wants it bad enough.
 
Take the kid flying and take money from the father. When the kid fails to obtain the medical you will still have gotten paid and have a clean conscious as you informed the father in advance.
 
So the reason for these rules is safety. Who knows the level of impairment when this kid is on or off his meds. While talking to the father sounds like a tough job, imagine keeping quiet and potentially talking to the mother at the kid's casket were something terrible to happen because of the impairment.

This is a no brainer as far as I am concerned, take the kid flying all you want, but tell him he needs to report his medical condition if he wants to get a license.
 
If he tells me that he was honest with the AME.and he obtains a medical, I am in no position to dispute the professional advice of the AME. I will continue to have dialog with my brother, I will just tell him that I will not assist in any dishonesty.
 
pilot_dude said:
Take the kid flying and take money from the father. When the kid fails to obtain the medical you will still have gotten paid and have a clean conscious as you informed the father in advance.
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The difficult question here is what would you do if the kid comes back with the medical without further ado, so you know they lied on the application. That's a box in which I would not want to be, and why I would distance myself from this situation before it got to that point.
 
Unregistered said:
If he tells me that he was honest with the AME.and he obtains a medical, I am in no position to dispute the professional advice of the AME. I will continue to have dialog with my brother, I will just tell him that I will not assist in any dishonesty.
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Good for you. But if he lies to the Feds, might he not lie to you, too? Would you still feel OK with that possibility?
 
Ron Levy said:
The difficult question here is what would you do if the kid comes back with the medical without further ado, so you know they lied on the application.
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Or they disclosed it, the AME counseled them on what they'd need to provide, and OKC sent them their free-and-clear medical.

Could be either really. But automatically assuming they lied makes for a better story, I suppose.
 
warthog1984 said:
Or they disclosed it, the AME counseled them on what they'd need to provide, and OKC sent them their free-and-clear medical.
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If the kid is diagnosed ADD/ADHD, that's not happening without the "further ado" I mentioned but you ignored, and as the OP said in post #1, "I know he will refuse to disclose to the AME when the time comes."
 
Ron Levy said:
If the kid is diagnosed ADD/ADHD, that's not happening without the "further ado" I mentioned but you ignored, and as the OP said in post #1, "I know he will refuse to disclose to the AME when the time comes."
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Unwarranted assumption and hearsay. None of what you're stating can be assumed based on an internet message board. Now, if OP knows they called up a random AME on the spur of the moment & came back 30 min later with a medical, your supposition may be true. Otherwise, it may have happened seamlessly in the background and OP is just not aware of it.
 
warthog1984 said:
Unwarranted assumption and hearsay. None of what you're stating can be assumed based on an internet message board. Now, if OP knows they called up a random AME on the spur of the moment & came back 30 min later with a medical, your supposition may be true. Otherwise, it may have happened seamlessly in the background and OP is just not aware of it.
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I'm just quoting the OP. You're the one assuming facts not in evidence.
 
Personally, I'd avoid the family conflict (regardless of the medical issue) and hand him off to another instructor. Laudable that you want to assist, and you're there to provide advice, but the risks of family issues are pretty high. I'd not consider being a teacher of record for anyone in the family as there's too much risk that it might be seen as a conflict of interest.

But that's just me. YMMV.
 
Ron Levy said:
I have had a couple of trainees who disclosed a disqualifying medical condition, and stopped training rather than lie on the medical. However, I've never had anyone ask me to go along with them in lying to the FAA. If someone did, I would a) counsel against that course of action, b) refuse to fly with them if they declined to accept my counsel, and c) if they got that medical after lying, report them as a safety hazard to the FAA. If nothing else, there is no "trainee-instructor confidentiality," and I would not want to be held accountable before either the FAA or a civil court for knowingly participating in their deceit.
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I think Ron's advice is right on target. The OP will be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. That's why my first response mentioned a potential family feud.
 
Ron Levy said:
Who was it who first said "Never do business with family?" This is a good example of why.
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And if you do go into biz with family, be explicitly clear on every small detail and put it down on paper.

Sorta like a well executed co-owner agreement! :)
 
Ron Levy said:
The difficult question here is what would you do if the kid comes back with the medical without further ado, so you know they lied on the application. That's a box in which I would not want to be, and why I would distance myself from this situation before it got to that point.
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The OP has no first hand knowledge. There is no box. Whether the kid lied to obtain the medical isn't the concern of the CFI.
 
wsuffa said:
I'd not consider being a teacher of record for anyone in the family as there's too much risk that it might be seen as a conflict of interest.
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I'm of the opposite view. I think a family member will often care more that the best instruction is given. If my boys choose to become pilots, I hope either I have my CFI by then or have my sister teach them.
 
Just catching up with this: dad put the kid on the drugs, dad can live with the consequences.
 
denverpilot said:
Just catching up with this: dad put the kid on the drugs, dad can live with the consequences.
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I've been wondering if that was some of the subtext to this story. Buck-daddy realizing the consequences of medical choices several years back, and discovering the bad news.
 
He just turned 14. There is a real good chance that by the time for him to solo (2yrs) I will no longer be available to instruct the little guy. The problem may just resolve itself. His father has been a monumental help in my aviation endeavors and he probably feels owed. When the time comes I will make the decision needed, following all regulations to my knowledge.
 
pilot_dude said:
The OP has no first hand knowledge. There is no box. Whether the kid lied to obtain the medical isn't the concern of the CFI.
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I typed out a response, but after some consideration erased it, and instead will refrain from further participation in this discussion.
 
likely more like the futility of equine hydration and porcine opera lessons.
 
I think it's important that OP also consider another little detail, namely, the youngster's life. If on the odd chance his is one of the few ADHD diagnoses that's actually valid, do you want to sign him off for a solo XC?

Pattern work is one thing. There's enough to do that even an ADHD case can stay focused. A long XC... not so much.

So meaning no offense, if I were the OP and a CFI, I wouldn't be thinking about the FAA's regs. I'd be thinking about the boy's life. Until I were satisfied that the young man is not going to zone out and get distracted at altitude -- by which I mean I would want him to get a full and complete psych eval -- there would be nothing to decide.

-Rich
 
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