Insurance woes

If you're a 100hr PPL with no instrument ticket, trying to insure a $200k hull, well...
FYI; John isn't this. He does have his instrument ticket, and is climbing above 200hrs as fast as he can.
 
FYI; John isn't this. He does have his instrument ticket, and is climbing above 200hrs as fast as he can.

Even at 200hrs and an instrument ticket, a 210 is a lot of airplane (unless you've done all your training in a similar airplane). You can't really be surprised when an insurance company wants to pump the brakes a little. I'd bet that $4k premium comes with a pretty stout training requirement, too. I have a partnership in a Super Viking. It was a cheap airplane ($35k hull), but our first year insurance premiums were nearly $2k because the lowest time partner only had a little more than 300hrs with about 40 or 50 complex. Extrapolate that out to a modest hull value 210 and $4k isn't outrageous for year 1.
 
Probably going to have a short term loan on it so would have to be full coverage

IMHO, liability only would be a bad idea anyway. But, on the loan front, if you're borrowing under $100k, look at Lightstream. I borrowed a little from them for my Twin Bo. Low rates, they don't take a lien on the plane, and super easy application/approval.
 
These are your insurance risk metrics:

Time as PIC in type (and recurrent training, seminars, FAAST Team class etc) - if multiple pilots on the policy, the least experienced is taken
Cost, performance and complexity of the aircraft in question. (acrobatic are higher than other piston singles despite fixed gear, retractable for all aircraft types is higher risk)
Hangar versus ramp
Medical status
Claim history
 
Last edited:
Even at 200hrs and an instrument ticket, a 210 is a lot of airplane (unless you've done all your training in a similar airplane). You can't really be surprised when an insurance company wants to pump the brakes a little. I'd bet that $4k premium comes with a pretty stout training requirement, too. I have a partnership in a Super Viking. It was a cheap airplane ($35k hull), but our first year insurance premiums were nearly $2k because the lowest time partner only had a little more than 300hrs with about 40 or 50 complex. Extrapolate that out to a modest hull value 210 and $4k isn't outrageous for year 1.


Lots of quasi backcountry operators in Namibia hire fresh 250hr pilots to fly pax out to camps in 210s, and they seem to do fine.
 
Have them give you a quote for say year 2 with x amount more hours in type and see what it might drop too. The first year you will likely have to eat the cost but do expect it to drop in year 2. But by how much is the question. My Cherokee started at 750 for the first year. I'm working on year 3 and it's now 480 a year. Cheaper than my car with more coverage. Again this is on a simple Cherokee.
 
OK, the *real* numbers are: 290TT, IR, $125K hull.

Mike, If the insurance stipulations are accurate it would be another 100 hrs before I can fly 149G.
 
OK, the *real* numbers are: 290TT, IR, $125K hull.

Mike, If the insurance stipulations are accurate it would be another 100 hrs before I can fly 149G.

How much HP/Complex?
 
The quote is a reflection of
- a 1 in 20 chance of you gearing up in year one
- a 210 being a total after a gear-up.

It's just math.
 
Mike, If the insurance stipulations are accurate it would be another 100 hrs before I can fly 149G.
If you didn't go to Steve Uslan and work out a different arrangement. Likely the BPPP will aid your case. @texasag93 (Garner) did something like that and got approved right about your current times.
 
The house doesn't have a *first* mortgage
To quote a certain bald guy from Franklin, TN.... "you're weird!"

I knew there is something about you and Susan I liked!
 
@JCranford The guy I used at Airsure was great. Based in far north Dallas and does a ton of bigger stuff, but he was super helpful in figuring out how to make everything work for me and making sure the policy allowed me to get the plane back with minimal headache. Let me know if you want his contact info.
 
@JCranford The guy I used at Airsure was great. Based in far north Dallas and does a ton of bigger stuff, but he was super helpful in figuring out how to make everything work for me and making sure the policy allowed me to get the plane back with minimal headache. Let me know if you want his contact info.

I appreciate the offer, but at this point, after talking it over with my wife, it appears the 210 is going to be out of reach at this point. We will have to regroup and go another route.
 
About 200hrs HP. A big ole goose egg on Complex.

I've never had anyone ask about high performance hours. The lack of complex and lack of time in type is probably hurting you.

Is there any way you could fly the plane with the current owner or fly another 210 for a few hours before purchasing and insuring the plane? A little time in type might help on the insurance quote and your insurability.
 
@JCranford The guy I used at Airsure was great. Based in far north Dallas and does a ton of bigger stuff, but he was super helpful in figuring out how to make everything work for me and making sure the policy allowed me to get the plane back with minimal headache. Let me know if you want his contact info.

Airsure has been great for me too. Both in personally owned aircraft and our flight school.
 
Just change all the 182s in your logbook to 210s duh.
 
Honestly, for that hull value and your experience, the higher first year quotes are not surprising. I paid $4k the first year on the Aztec, which was either $40k or $60k hull. I think that was basically right at 225 TT, maybe 50 complex (in a Mooney), <10 HP, and 0 multi. Didn't even have my multi rating yet. I had to get 25 hours of dual before I was allowed to fly it (interestingly the insurance didn't require me to have the rating, so I got signed off to solo the plane to my multi checkride, which was pretty awesome).

So, you're looking at 2-3x the hull value with similar experience levels on a plane that has the same number of seats, albeit a single instead of a twin.

Experience is king when it comes to getting your premiums down. The 414's insurance is ~$2800 on a $160k hull. And that's a pressurized, turbocharged twin. Of course, I've also got over 2,000 hours in piston twins (and over 2,600 TT) and plenty of cabin class and Twin Cessna time within that.

From what I've observed, you basically have to bite the bullet somewhere and pay a "high" insurance premium early on. Once you get over that hurdle, the hurdles get much lower each time you go up. And at a certain point, there basically isn't a hurdle anymore. After the first year, the price goes down a lot. Like I said, first year in the Aztec was $4k. 2nd year was around $3k, despite increasing the hull value that year.

Alternately, you can wait and build some more experience in the club planes, or find a plane with a lower hull value. You could also look for a partner which would allow you to 1) spend less on the plane out of your pocket and 2) split the fixed costs.

I can give you my insurance broker's contact info and he's done very well for all the pilots upgrading who I've sent his way. That said, I doubt you'll see much lower than the $4k number you got. Maybe a bit.
 
You are lucky any carrier will even look at you, you are high risk on a 210.
Aside from the hostility, that is not quite true. Statistically, a fresh holder of a complex endorsement is far less likely to forget to lower the gear. Yet, the insurance companies milk us as much as the ones who are statistically more likely to do so. Gotta love capitalistic socialism in insurance.

If anybody finds a good broker who is not outright lazy but instead willing to work for their commission, let me know. Our broker and underwriter are totally lazy and hard to work with, it might be a time to switch.
 
OK, the *real* numbers are: 290TT, IR, $125K hull.

Mike, If the insurance stipulations are accurate it would be another 100 hrs before I can fly 149G.

Yeah... With those numbers, $4,000 is really good deal. Once you get a 100 hours of retract time, the premiums will come down.

What about 182RG? Baby steps, right? ;)
 
Yeah... With those numbers, $4,000 is really good deal. Once you get a 100 hours of retract time, the premiums will come down.

What about 182RG? Baby steps, right? ;)

The RG is my fallback position. Probably what I will start looking at now.
 
so, I've been shopping for a 210 for a bit. I did a pre-buy on one in Idaho which turned out to be a turd. The plane, not Idaho...

I'm working on a second one which is looking really good.

Then I get an insurance quote. One quote at $4000. One quote at $5400!! WTF!?

Now, I know I'm gonna get hammered a bit for low time and lack of retract time, but that's a little ridiculous. I was told by two different agents that the 210 is out of favor with insurance companies at the moment. This could be a deal breaker for me.

Short of flying with no insurance, any suggestions??
I can't comment on what a 210 should be with your hours/etc.

I will say I shopped around for the 310 a lot. Every recommendation from the Twin Cessna Flyer forum and here and whatever else I had heard of.

Avemco was the absolute highest and strangely enough, AOPA was the best. ~100K hull and all the other normal limits most people get. I am less than 2000. Don't remember the exact seems like high 1800's. It was less than half Avemco. Think it was through AIG if memory serves right (it's only been a few months but I brain dump stuff quick). Anyway, if you're a member and haven't tried them yet, give AOPA a shot.
 
I was planning on buying a 210 when I got my Cardinal RG in 2013. I had close to 1000 hours but VFR only and no complex or retract time. I couldn't find anyone that would cover me at all. They all said the statistical risk given my experience (lack of) was just too high for them to be able to make the numbers work.

Two of the brokers I talked with suggested I check out a Cardinal after discussing how I planned to use it with me. Like most I fly more by myself than with a passenger and don't fly with more than one or two passengers more than a few times a year at most.

I still wish for the extra speed you get with a 210 but the 177 RG has been a great fit given how we use it. If the mission changes I might move up but for now I like what I have

Good luck

Gary
 
I appreciate the offer, but at this point, after talking it over with my wife, it appears the 210 is going to be out of reach at this point. We will have to regroup and go another route.
John, you might go talk to Corbin G. and his partners about their experiences getting insurance, plus find out what their times were. Maybe they can also connect you with their broker.
 
The RG is my fallback position. Probably what I will start looking at now.

You may run into nasty insurance numbers on the RG, too. It's that complex column in the logbook that's biting you in the butt and always does until a magic number is hit.

As Ted pointed out, same problem in twins.

Also think of it this way... maybe you don't want to bail on that first year of higher costs if you're just going to step up into a 210 later for mission reasons anyway. Time in type is still going to be a factor then.

One more thought: If $4000/yr is making you balk a bit... finding something wrong at annual (or anytime really) that costs $4000 to fix on a 210 is fairly likely within the first five years of ownership. Hitting $4000 on maintenance/repair would be *easy* on a 210.

Just the extra labor for the annual gear swing can add a small chunk of change, even. It isn't a low dollars for maintainability aircraft.

Parts aren't cheap for them like they can be for the more popular Cessna singles. That's what drives totaling so many of them that have wrecks. It's just the numbers.
 
How much retract time will be needed for the butt bite to be not so deep?
 
Yeah, retracts are retracts, but the extra two seats arent helping much either. Not that you can really put two real people in them but theyre there. I offered to remove them and call it a 4 seater, but they didnt bite. :rolleyes:

Just for fun since I started this thread, I got a 182RG quote at $2000.
 
Or you might join a second club. There's one a few miles down I-35 where you can get Complex time for $60/hr dry tach. ;)
 
I can get complex time where I'm at for 130 wet. But our insurance minimums changed recently making the Bo harder to get into. So, while I can get dual time, under the current insurance req's I can't solo the Bo
 
With the C-210, the issue is not just your experience (or lack thereof) with high performance or complex aircraft. Much of the underwriting analysis has to do with the airplane's admirable speed and load-carrying capability, and therefore its unfortunate popularity with those who use them in the business of transporting certain chemical substances in a northerly direction. Not always do these entrepreneurs first go through the formality of purchasing the aircraft.

Some years ago I read that one-third of all airplanes stolen in the US were Cessna 210s based in California.
So you're saying entrepreneurs like it? ;)
 
Yeah, retracts are retracts, but the extra two seats arent helping much either. Not that you can really put two real people in them but theyre there. I offered to remove them and call it a 4 seater, but they didnt bite. :rolleyes:

Just for fun since I started this thread, I got a 182RG quote at $2000.
I've got an RG down the road from you. Airsure got me in through Tokyo Marine for much less than the other quotes I was getting.

Point is - if you want to take a look at an average 182RG to see how well you think your family will fit, let me know. Happy to let you crawl in mine.
 
When we got our Mooney none of the 4 partners had retract time TT were 100 on the low end to 250 on the high, no IFRs. 110,000 hull on a M20J and i think our first year was 1800. Mooneys must have a lower risk, 4K seems crazy.
 
Yeah, retracts are retracts, but the extra two seats arent helping much either. Not that you can really put two real people in them but theyre there. I offered to remove them and call it a 4 seater, but they didnt bite. :rolleyes:

Just for fun since I started this thread, I got a 182RG quote at $2000.

Insurance companies go by the aircraft certification, not the number of seats that are physically in the airplane.

We only have 4 in 149G, but it is insured as 5. We cannot get around it.

This was explained in detail by Steve U.
 
Insurance companies go by the aircraft certification, not the number of seats that are physically in the airplane.

We only have 4 in 149G, but it is insured as 5. We cannot get around it.

This was explained in detail by Steve U.
That isn't entirely true. Yes, underwriters typically go with the number of seats the airplane was certified with.

But you CAN get that number reduced if you have a good broker. What you need is a non-standard seating letter. It is basically a statement from you to the underwriter saying that you will never operate with more than x number of seats.

I have one for my Beech 18 (limited to 7 seats) since the Beech 18 was certified for 10.
 
The RG is my fallback position. Probably what I will start looking at now.

If the hull value is similar expect similar numbers for it too. Like I posted previously mine was outrageous the first year but steadily dropped every year (until we put it into our flight school, then obviously it increased). Good luck, there are some nice 182RGs out there, and some crummy ones. But it's the best bang for the buck single engine airplane IMO. Fill the seats and the tanks and go flying for 7 hours (non-turbo).
 
Back
Top