Insurance advise light twin

6t6

6t6

Pre-takeoff checklist
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So after many years working for a rock solid company and financially graduating from my divorce 7 years ago I finally want to add to my bucket list and buy a light twin. As a low time private pilot how would insurance be structured. What will the insurance companies be looking at? Would I have to have a MEI with me for many hours? What about deductible? I have never owned an aircraft so any ideas and advice would be appreciated. Recommendations?
 
Paging @Ted DuPuis --- Ted is one of our members who has lots and lots and lots of light twin experience and would be a good resource for you.
 
6t6 said:
So after many years working for a rock solid company and financially graduating from my divorce 7 years ago I finally want to add to my bucket list and buy a light twin. As a low time private pilot how would insurance be structured. What will the insurance companies be looking at? Would I have to have a MEI with me for many hours? What about deductible? I have never owned an aircraft so any ideas and advice would be appreciated. Recommendations?
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Assuming you already have your multi-engine and high performance rating they may also require you to do 100 hours in your own plane with a MEI in order to satisfy the low time problem and the retractable gear problem.
 
It depends on the aircraft you choose and your specifics. How low is low time, do you have an instrument rating, do you have a multi rating, etc.?

A 310/Baron/Aztec/Seneca/Twin Comanche is pretty easy to get insured in. You might need 25 hours of dual, but nowhere near 100. Insurance requirements have improved significantly. I can recommend a broker to contact if you'd like.
 
Lots of "it depends." First, what does "low time" mean? Do you have an instrument rating? Are you already multi-engine rated? A lot will also depend on the underwriting data for the particular make/model you're looking at. A couple of data points, for whatever they're worth:

I've got around 1500 total time, an CFII/MEI and about 85 multi, plus hundreds of hours in high performance complex airplanes (PA32s, Bonanzas, etc.). 2 years ago I bought a Bellanca Super Viking (single engine, high performance retract). The insurance company required 5 hours of dual and an IPC before I could fly it solo.

2 months ago I bought a Twin Bonanza. I hadn't flown a twin at all in >10 years. The insurance company required only a checkout from a qualified CFI (no time requirement). In fact, I even easily negotiated that down to a familiarization flight with the non-CFI seller (it didn't come to that, but I had the option).
 
another twin driver here...as long as you dont go with AVEMCO most any broker will quote you $1500-$2500/yr for a light twin (baron, seneca, C-310 (best of the breed :))
 
Tx_Flyboy said:
another twin driver here...as long as you dont go with AVEMCO most any broker will quote you $1500-$2500/yr for a light twin (baron, seneca, C-310 (best of the breed :))
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Ha, yes, I made the mistake of quoting Avemco just as a "check" against the policy my broker quoted. Holy cow!! My broker quoted $1770/yr, with no hard checkout requirement. Avemco quoted over $8k/yr and insisted that I attend a formal school (I'm not sure they realize, or care, that there is no such thing as formal school for the Twin Bonanza...).
 
Another thing that can help is complex time. If all your time is not only single engine, but also fixed gear and fixed prop you are more risk and therefore the rate is higher. If you have some complex time that will help. It won't make the world all better, but it may get them to at least use lubricant. :eek:

I joined in on a Baron last year with only 44 hrs of ME time, so I was worried about the insurance bump I would cause. My 300+ hrs of complex time made it very small.
 
James331 said:
I'd also check with these guys.

https://www.airpowerinsurance.com
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Second this. TJ is my broker. Very good and specializes with unique cases.

In my experience, 25 hrs ME seems to be a magic number to getting owned insurance. If you are just starting out, a good broker like TJ can help find an underwriter who is reasonable to work with.

As others said; avoid Avemco. They are fine for vanilla single engine stuff and non-owned policies, but they flat out suck when you get into bigger things.
 
citizen5000 said:
Assuming you already have your multi-engine and high performance rating they may also require you to do 100 hours in your own plane with a MEI in order to satisfy the low time problem and the retractable gear problem.
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100 hrs is way excessive. Even a guy I know who bought a Beech 18 before getting his ME, only needed 50 hrs before solo. A common light twin is going to be much easier.
 
Fearless Tower said:
100 hrs is way excessive. Even a guy I know who bought a Beech 18 before getting his ME, only needed 50 hrs before solo. A common light twin is going to be much easier.
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Back in 2011 when I started flying Navajos the insurance required 50 hours of dual. That was ridiculous when you consider that I had over 600 hours of multi time (I think more like 700) in both the Aztec and the 310. The Navajo is not a difficult airplane to fly, either. Back in those days, the insurnace market was part of what was killing aviation. The current setup is much more conducive to people stepping up.
 
I guess I'm a little slow, but could someone tell me why it to give the N number?
 
MikeLima said:
I guess I'm a little slow, but could someone tell me why it to give the N number?
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It's to prevent people from shopping brokers. Once a broker gets a quote from an underwriter on a specific tail number, that tail number is blocked out from other brokers. In other words, if I get a quote from Broker A, and then go to Broker B and ask for a quote on the same tail number, the second broker won't be able to get a quote.

Problem is, I'm not sure your going to get an accurate quote without providing the N number.
 
And there are very few underwriters behind all of those fancy brand names for insurance. Getting locked at one means you're done getting quotes from a lot of companies.
 
I've been debating Cirrus SR-22 vs. twin, so decided to check insurance costs. I currently have my Decathlon insured with Avemco, paying $1700/yr. Both my wife and I are ~220 TT PPSEL, with lots of TW time, no IR, no ME.

Here's what Avemco told me:
- Cessna 340 - wouldn't write a policy, need 550 hours TT, 100 ME
- Seneca V - $300k hull, 25 hours dual (can be part of ME training) - $11,922 / yr
- Cessna 310 - $200k hull, 25 hours dual (can be part of ME training) - $10k / year, with IR, $8500
- Cirrus SR-22T - $300k hull, transition / 10 hours dual -- $2930 (discount for 2007 and newer Cirrus; 2006 and earlier would be > $4100), with IR, save 10%

So, from the insurance costs alone, Cirrus is the way to go, by more than a factor of 3!
 
Yeah, but call more than Avemco. Avemco was over 2.5x higher for my 182.

Most insurance agents are small operations, friendly, and more than happy to help give you at least ballpark numbers. Call them on the phone. When I shopped around, I just said "any 182P" that I may consider purchasing.
 
Tx_Flyboy said:
another twin driver here...as long as you dont go with AVEMCO most any broker will quote you $1500-$2500/yr for a light twin (baron, seneca, C-310 (best of the breed :))
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sorry, that's bull*** for someone with less than hundreds of hours in type.
 
paflyer said:
Not if you want pressurization, with a wet ME.
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So long as you have 500 TT I'm seeing people make that jump without an issue insurance wise.
 
Dont know if I got screwed, or its the way it is, but with no IR and no time in type, my K35 insurance is 2200 for the first year. 15 dual and 10 solo required. I did get better than base amounts for passengers, but its above a quote above for a twin. Not with Avemco
 
6t6 said:
So after many years working for a rock solid company and financially graduating from my divorce 7 years ago I finally want to add to my bucket list and buy a light twin. As a low time private pilot how would insurance be structured. What will the insurance companies be looking at? Would I have to have a MEI with me for many hours? What about deductible? I have never owned an aircraft so any ideas and advice would be appreciated. Recommendations?
Click to expand...
I was quoted, as a 130hr PP with no IR. $3,400/year for a $50k Aztec. it required 25hrs of dual and 10 more hours solo before I could carry passengers. the broker told me to expect it to drop significantly in the second year if I got my IR and some time in type.
 
Another vote for AirPower. They were the only ones that were semi-reasonable when I bought my 210
 
Avemco ,runs hot and cold,I insured my twin beech Travelair ,with them. They where the cheapest,and continued to lower my premium as I got more hours. Only had to do 5 hours with an mei,but had to do 25 hours solo. When I insured my liberty single with them, they weren’t even in the ballpark.
 
Avemco was the ONLY insurer willing to insure the Navion at the hull I felt it was worth. They just accepted my list of things that made it worth that much in my opinion. They didn't even ask about hours I think (though both Margy and I had hundreds in the Navion before we switched to them).

I can't recall my first insurer (Gulf Signal?) asking for any amount of hours or a checkout or anything. Amusingly, a friend of mine that had flown U2's in the Air Force wanted to fly my plane. The open pilot clause did require 5 hours in type and 25 hours retract time. I asked him if the wheels fall off your plane whether that counts as retract time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Because an underwriter isn’t going to quote without a n-number. An experienced broker can give a rough estimate, but the accuracy can vary when it comes down to actual quoting.
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Right, but why not? Accident history? Past ownership?

Or just so they have a chain of data?
 
paflyer said:
Right, but why not? Accident history? Past ownership?

Or just so they have a chain of data?
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Not a broker, so can't say for sure.

I believe it may be so that you can't play one broker off another. In other words, if they quote N1234 to one broker and then the next day another broker asks for a quote on the same N#, it raises flags.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Yeah, but call more than Avemco. Avemco was over 2.5x higher for my 182.
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Avemco was by far the lowest for my Decathlon. The broker I contacted brought quotes from 3 underwriters for the same tail number. All three were significantly higher, in some cases more than double.
 
pilotmax said:
Avemco was by far the lowest for my Decathlon. The broker I contacted brought quotes from 3 underwriters for the same tail number. All three were significantly higher, in some cases more than double.
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In my experience, Avemco tends to do better with the lower end 2-4 seat airplanes including small tailwheels. When you start moving up into bigger more powerful airplanes, Avemco gets downright stoopid.

They also seem to be more competitive with lower Time pilots. As you build experience, it is easier to get better deals from other underwriters.
 
You may be right. I have my RV-4 insured with them as well, they were the lowest price then too.
 
Tx_Flyboy said:
another twin driver here...as long as you dont go with AVEMCO most any broker will quote you $1500-$2500/yr for a light twin (baron, seneca, C-310 (best of the breed :))
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Can you name a few? I just picked up my CMEL and don't really want to lug around an MEI for 25 hours in an AZTEC like Avemco is requiring.
 
This thread is from 2017. Since then, there has been a change in the insurance market with fewer players at the table. Prices and training requirements are back on the rise.
 
Royce Repka said:
Can you name a few? I just picked up my CMEL and don't really want to lug around an MEI for 25 hours in an AZTEC like Avemco is requiring.
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You shouldn’t be lugging him around, he should be giving you comprehensive training and working your butt off during that 25 hours
 
This was many years ago, and in Canada, so with that said when I moved from my 210 into my Baron, the first year was about 1.6 x for insurance of what I was paying on my 210. The second year it dropped substantially and was not much more than I had been paying for the 210, third year was a slight drop, and it leveled off there. All I could really glean from that was they were skeptical about how I would do the first year of ownership, and then relaxed a bunch once I didn't turn it into a pretzel those first 12 months.
 
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