Instructions for holding on a radial and DME from the VOR

[gismo]

A question came up in a recent discussion about holding clearances and instructions. When a holding fix is located at a navaid it's pretty clear that the holding radial will equal the approximate outbound track and the inbound track will be 180° from that. But if the holding fix is say, 10 DME east of the VOR on the 090 radial what would the instructions be if ATC wanted the inbound course to the hold to be 090? Until this question came up I had been thinking that the direction (East/West/North etc) was redundant given that the exact radial was also provided but now I'm questioning that and not a little confused as to how such a clearance would sound.

I know that controllers are supposed to state both the holding radial and the direction from the fix/navaid so I'm wondering if that would sound something like "Hold WEST of the 10 DME fix on the 090 radial of XYZ VOR...", or would it be something different.

In my 25 years of instrument flying I've never been given this kind of hold, in fact I think I've probably only been given any kind of hold less than a handful of times and those were either published holds or holds on an airway with the inbound leg headed towards the next VOR on the route.

 

[TMetzinger]

I know that controllers are supposed to state both the holding radial and the direction from the fix/navaid so I'm wondering if that would sound something like "Hold WEST of the 10 DME fix on the 090 radial of XYZ VOR...", or would it be something different.

I beileve that "Hold west of the 10 DME on the XYZ 090 radial" would be how ATC would describe it, but Steve would know better.

Assuming I was already west of the fix on the radial, I'd head eastbound until 10 DME, and start my right hand turn. If I was east of the fix on the radial, I'd fly westbound until 10 DMY turn left 30 degrees, fly for a minute and then turn right to join the radial and track east until 10 DME again.

As always when it comes to ATC instructions, if you have any doubt, ASK the controller.

 

[jesse]

A question came up in a recent discussion about holding clearances and instructions. When a holding fix is located at a navaid it's pretty clear that the holding radial will equal the approximate outbound track and the inbound track will be 180° from that. But if the holding fix is say, 10 DME east of the VOR on the 090 radial what would the instructions be if ATC wanted the inbound course to the hold to be 090?

Cherokee 38J, Hold west of the 10 DME fix on the 090 radial of the LNK VOR. Expect further clearance at 0200 zulu, time is 0130 zulu.

I tend to cover about every hold I can think up with instrument students. A really easy way to accomplish this is by going VFR and "creating" a VOR using the OBS mode on the 430.

 

[Palmpilot]

When a holding fix is located at a navaid it's pretty clear that the holding radial will equal the approximate outbound track and the inbound track will be 180° from that.

When the holding fix is a navaid, I thought the holding radial was the inbound track.

 

[poadeleted20]

When the holding fix is a navaid, I thought the holding radial was the inbound track.

The holding radial does define the holding course, but you always hold inbound to the fix, so for a hold at a VOR, the inbound course is always the reciprocal of the radial on which you are holding.

OTOH, for a hold at an intersection, you could be holding either side of the fix, so the holding course may be either the radial or the reciprocal. In the example case, if told to hold west of the 090/10, the inbound course would be 090, but if told to hold east, it would be 270 -- but either way, you'd be holding on the 090 radial.

And yes, this is an issue which always requires a good bit of explaining during IR training because in many ways it is counterintuitive.

 

[gismo]

The holding radial does define the holding course, but you always hold inbound to the fix, so for a hold at a VOR, the inbound course is always the reciprocal of the radial on which you are holding.

OTOH, for a hold at an intersection, you could be holding either side of the fix, so the holding course may be either the radial or the reciprocal. In the example case, if told to hold west of the 090/10, the inbound course would be 090, but if told to hold east, it would be 270 -- but either way, you'd be holding on the 090 radial.

And yes, this is an issue which always requires a good bit of explaining during IR training because in many ways it is counterintuitive.

So, am I correct that the direction given (East/West etc) defines the side of the inbound leg relative to the fix (and not the navaid when the fix is away from the navaid)?

 

[Palmpilot]

The holding radial does define the holding course, but you always hold inbound to the fix, so for a hold at a VOR, the inbound course is always the reciprocal of the radial on which you are holding.

That's what I meant: you fly inbound on the radial. (You explained it better than I did.)

OTOH, for a hold at an intersection, you could be holding either side of the fix, so the holding course may be either the radial or the reciprocal. In the example case, if told to hold west of the 090/10, the inbound course would be 090, but if told to hold east, it would be 270 -- but either way, you'd be holding on the 090 radial.

Agreed.

 

[jesse]

So, am I correct that the direction given (East/West etc) defines the side of the inbound leg relative to the fix (and not the navaid when the fix is away from the navaid)?

Yes. The direction is always relative to the FIX you're holding at.

 

[Palmpilot]

So, am I correct that the direction given (East/West etc) defines the side of the inbound leg relative to the fix (and not the navaid when the fix is away from the navaid)?

It defines where almost the entire holding pattern is relative to the fix, not just where the inbound leg is. For example, when told to hold west, most of the holding pattern, including both inbound and outbound legs, is west-ish of the fix. (The exception is the turn outbound after crossing the fix.)

The inbound leg is always the one that crosses over the fix (if the holding pattern is being flown correctly).

 

[gismo]

It defines where almost the entire holding pattern is relative to the fix, not just where the inbound leg is. For example, when told to hold west, most of the holding pattern, including both inbound and outbound legs, is west-ish of the fix. (The exception is the turn outbound after crossing the fix.)

The inbound leg is always the one that crosses over the fix (if the holding pattern is being flown correctly).

I would say that "if the holding pattern is being flown correctly" that the inbound leg will be on the same side of the fix as the majority of the holding pattern.

 

[COFlyBoy]

I would say that "if the holding pattern is being flown correctly" that the inbound leg will be on the same side of the fix as the majority of the holding pattern.

I'd disagree. If ATC is being "nice" to you then yes the entry should be on the same side as you are holding. Mean ATC could end up having you reverse course to hold at that intersection.

For example: You are eastbound from the VOR on the 090 radial at say 5 DME. ATC could give you two different holds at the same 10 DME fix:

Nice (as Jesse described): Cherokee 38J, Hold west of the 10 DME fix on the 090 radial of the LNK VOR.

Not Nice: Cherokee 38J, Hold east of the 10 DME fix on the 090 radial of the LNK VOR. Here you would have to reverse course to hold at the 10 DME fix on the east side. I have no idea if ATC would ever do this to anyone though.

 

[Palmpilot]

I would say that "if the holding pattern is being flown correctly" that the inbound leg will be on the same side of the fix as the majority of the holding pattern.

Agreed. I was just trying to point out that it's not only the inbound leg, but most of the holding pattern for which that's true.

(As for the "flown correctly" part, I was thinking of one of my instrument flying textbooks, in which an example is shown where a pilot does such a poor job of compensating for crosswind that the aircraft never crosses the holding fix again after the intial crossing!)

 

[Palmpilot]

I'd disagree. If ATC is being "nice" to you then yes the entry should be on the same side as you are holding. Mean ATC could end up having you reverse course to hold at that intersection.

I think he was using the term "inbound leg" to mean the course flown toward the fix AFTER you have completed whatever holding entry method you have selected (e.g., direct, teardrop, or parallel), and are established in the holding pattern, which may or may not be the course you are on when you are approaching the holding fix for the first time.

At least that's what I meant by it.

 

[gismo]

I think he was using the term "inbound leg" to mean the course flown toward the fix AFTER you have completed whatever holding entry method you have selected (e.g., direct, teardrop, or parallel), and are established in the holding pattern, which may or may not be the course you are on when you are approaching the holding fix for the first time.

At least that's what I meant by it.

Me too.

 

[gismo]

Agreed. I was just trying to point out that it's not only the inbound leg, but most of the holding pattern for which that's true.

(As for the "flown correctly" part, I was thinking of one of my instrument flying textbooks, in which an example is shown where a pilot does such a poor job of compensating for crosswind that the aircraft never crosses the holding fix again after the intial crossing!)

I've heard CFII tales of "holding patterns that weren't even in the same county as the fix" more than once. Of course that was pre-GPS and pre G1000. You suppose that someday it will come to a box on the screen and all you're supposed to do is remain in the box?

 

[John Collins]

Holding at a DME fix on a VOR radial is relatively easy, there are only two choices relative to the fix and two turn directions for a total of 4 possibilities. I also would use the inbound leg to define the holding side of the fix as it will always lie in the direction relative to the fix included in the hold instruction. So hold east, the inbound leg will be east of the fix. The holding pattern portion that includes the fix could easily be in a different quadrant of direction from a fix, for example a hold with standard right turns east of the fix will put much of the holding pattern to the south east.

Holding at a VOR/VOR radial intersection can have four sides to hold on and two directions of hold, for a total of 8 possibilities for the holding pattern. So if the intersection is formed by the VOR ABC 090 radial and the VOR DEF 330 radial, one could be instructed to hold West, or East on the 090 radial of ABC VOR, or North West, or South East of the fix on the DEF 330 radial. To fully define the holding pattern, the direction of turn would be assumed to be to the right if none is stated and to the left if left turns are stated.

In the old days, we used to have a situational awareness training task where the pilot was requested to fly to the VOR/VOR intersection from a random point. It had no real practical purpose in actual IFR flight, but was good to get the pilot thinking about how to get to the fix and then hold.

 

[nosehair]

You suppose that someday it will come to a box on the screen and all you're supposed to do is remain in the box?

That's all it is now. The "box" being an egg-shaped racetrack. Just stay in there.

 

[poadeleted20]

Not Nice: Cherokee 38J, Hold east of the 10 DME fix on the 090 radial of the LNK VOR. Here you would have to reverse course to hold at the 10 DME fix on the east side. I have no idea if ATC would ever do this to anyone though.

They'd do it in a heartbeat if there were airspace/separation issues on the other side.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's all it is now. The "box" being an egg-shaped racetrack. Just stay in there.

While that may work for ATC, it doesn't work for a practical test, where you need not do a "textbook" entry (just stay in the protected airspace), but you will be expected to fly as racetrack pattern with a 1-minute (or as assigned) inbound leg.

 

[denverpilot]

An old CFII/Airline guy shared this wisdom with me once:

For the checkride you'll fly timed legs and like it. (Grin...)

In the real-world if you're /A you'll ask the controller for a leg length if you're smart and relieve yourself from the job of staring at a stopwatch/timer.

He said he's never been turned down for 10 NM legs via DME when he's asked. Longer, so less turning, and easy to do by just watching the DME count up or down.

He said he's heard a whole stack request it after he did, too. Five aircraft. Controller just announced "anyone in the hold at XXXXX, fly 10 mile DME legs if you like" after the first three aircraft asked.

Controller didn't care as long as they all stayed on the protected side and weren't bombing inbound past that fix.

One of those "real world" tricks you never read about in the study books.

 

[RotorAndWing]

An old CFII/Airline guy shared this wisdom with me once:

For the checkride you'll fly timed legs and like it. (Grin...)

In the real-world if you're /A you'll ask the controller for a leg length if you're smart and relieve yourself from the job of staring at a stopwatch/timer.

He said he's never been turned down for 10 NM legs via DME when he's asked. Longer, so less turning, and easy to do by just watching the DME count up or down.

He said he's heard a whole stack request it after he did, too. Five aircraft. Controller just announced "anyone in the hold at XXXXX, fly 10 mile DME legs if you like" after the first three aircraft asked.

Controller didn't care as long as they all stayed on the protected side and weren't bombing inbound past that fix.

One of those "real world" tricks you never read about in the study books.

Back in my airline days we routinely asked for 20 mile legs if we were stuck in a hold and was never denied. I don't ever recall doing timed legs in the real world, only during sim training.

 

[poadeleted20]

Back in my airline days we routinely asked for 20 mile legs if we were stuck in a hold and was never denied. I don't ever recall doing timed legs in the real world, only during sim training.

Timed legs happen in the real world more often than this might suggest. There are a lot of light airplanes out there without DME or GPS, and even if you have DME, a lot of VOR's that aren't VORTAC's or VOR/DME's. I've done quite a few timed leg holds over the years in such situations. Also, if you ever get a timed approach (which is admittedly not common in civilian flying, but still an authorized procedure which we did routinely at the ship in the Navy -- with 10-second tolerance to depart the fix), you'll need those timing skills for that, too.

 

[Palmpilot]

I've heard CFII tales of "holding patterns that weren't even in the same county as the fix" more than once. Of course that was pre-GPS and pre G1000. You suppose that someday it will come to a box on the screen and all you're supposed to do is remain in the box?

Don't worry, LightSquared and the FCC are working on a way to ensure that legacy navigation skills don't become obsolete!

 

[RotorAndWing]

Timed legs happen in the real world more often than this might suggest. There are a lot of light airplanes out there without DME or GPS, and even if you have DME, a lot of VOR's that aren't VORTAC's or VOR/DME's. I've done quite a few timed leg holds over the years in such situations. Also, if you ever get a timed approach (which is admittedly not common in civilian flying, but still an authorized procedure which we did routinely at the ship in the Navy -- with 10-second tolerance to depart the fix), you'll need those timing skills for that, too.

With light GA aircraft, certainly this may happen. In my years of flying 135/corporate I seldom got a timed hold. Usually the controller was on top of things and if a hold looked like it may happen I just slowed down far enough out (with ATC concurrence) and by the time I reached the hold point I could proceed without delay.

In the airline days we had plenty of timed approaches in Central and South America.

 

[poadeleted20]

With light GA aircraft, certainly this may happen. In my years of flying 135/corporate I seldom got a timed hold. Usually the controller was on top of things and if a hold looked like it may happen I just slowed down far enough out (with ATC concurrence) and by the time I reached the hold point I could proceed without delay.

Sometimes even the best controllers are overcome by events, like the AOPA Open House fly-in about 10 years ago when FDK was W0X0F until about 0930, and they had airplanes stacked like cordwood at every navaid for 40 miles around, including several with no DME. In any event, it's a skill which must be learned and should be practiced from time to time, 'cause you never know when you might need it.