Initial CFI training problem

[121Dispatch]

So, I finally got enough cash saved up to get started on my CFI training. Before I get too deep in this - all my flying has been done on the east coast - flying here in DEN is AMAZING in comparison!!!

Alright, back to the topic - While building $$$ I got my AGI and put together some ground lesson plans, and taught a PPL ground school. Everything went well with the ground school - I was able to articulate the lessons, and answer (or get answers) for all the questions that came up.

Now - as I put my flight lessons together, I do a descent job of giving a pre-flight briefing, but once I get in the air, I find it very difficult to talk through the maneuvers. Of course, the airplane is a terrible training environment, and I find myself watching for traffic, concentrating on "doing" the maneuver (to standards), all while trying my best to verbalize everything I'm doing. While I'm dividing my concentration, I find I'm talking in circles, or losing track of what I'm trying to say - and most likely confusing the "student."

I assume this is somewhat common, and my thoughts are to do some "chair flying" while talking and looking around, getting out in the airplane by myself and talking through each maneuver, and working with an instructor in the sim in an effort to save $$$.

Anyone with common experiences have any other suggestions on keeping my words straight while flying, looking for traffic, etc???

 

[TMetzinger]

I think the chair flying will help. If you can develop a "script" for what you are doing, and memorize it, then your brain will not be working on it while you're flying, and you'll be less task-saturated. You'll just start your speech while you start the manuever, and be able to focus on the flying and less on the talking (except for the times when you have to make a comment about something "different" than rehearsed).

Look at politicians, or actors, or other professional speakers. They have their lines so cold that they can focus on nuance.

And you get there the same way you get to Carnegie Hall - practice practice practice.

 

[dmccormack]

Now - as I put my flight lessons together, I do a descent job of giving a pre-flight briefing, but once I get in the air, I find it very difficult to talk through the maneuvers. Of course, the airplane is a terrible training environment, and I find myself watching for traffic, concentrating on "doing" the maneuver (to standards), all while trying my best to verbalize everything I'm doing. While I'm dividing my concentration, I find I'm talking in circles, or losing track of what I'm trying to say - and most likely confusing the "student."

Anyone with common experiences have any other suggestions on keeping my words straight while flying, looking for traffic, etc???

It will help if you get used to talking yourself through flight maneuvers -- in other words, take the airplane out solo and talk yourself through.

You need to practice the link between action and verbalization.

Instead of thinking-->doing-->thinking-->talking you want thinking & talking while doing.

This really requires practice, and that doesn't have to be restricted to airplanes. Talk yourself through a golf swing, a drive on the freeway -- whatever -- but get comfortable talking out loud as you perform some task.

 

[poadeleted20]

This generally happens when the instructor trainee doesn't have enough flight experience that the flight maneuvers themselves are sufficiently internalized. As a result, the flying tasks eat so much of the instructor trainee's attention that there's nothing left for teaching. There's little you can do about this but fly more, and get to the point that you don't have to think much about the flying tasks, and can concentrate more on the teaching.

 

[Everskyward]

So, I finally got enough cash saved up to get started on my CFI training. Before I get too deep in this - all my flying has been done on the east coast - flying here in DEN is AMAZING in comparison!!!

Is that because the airplanes are amazingly gutless here because of the DA or because the visibility is amazing compared to the east?

 

[121Dispatch]

because of the DA or because the visibility is amazing compared to the east?

Our first time out - the instructor mentioned it was a bit hazy - I could see about 30 miles! I used to be happy when vis on the east coast was 5-6sm.

Thanks to the others for the replies, and I agree with all of them.

Ron - you're not far off - my PPL was about 15 years ago - long medical hiatus, then IR/Comm each about a year apart...now another year off due to move/lack of flying funds. I think getting up solo and polishing things up, in addition to the other recommendations is going to help.

 

[KennyFlys]

When I took the CFI ride back in February, I wasn't talking that much. I told Ben I don't think I talked through maneuvers very much at all. He told me not to worry about it, I did fine for the ride and more will come to me soon enough.

While I wasn't so sure about that, it did come to me. I can't even tell you when. I began talking through maneuvers suddenly and as mysteriously as I stopped side-loading my right-seat landings. It just started happening.



Don't let it worry you. It will come to you in due time.

 

[Everskyward]

While I wasn't so sure about that, it did come to me. I can't even tell you when. I began talking through maneuvers suddenly and as mysteriously as I stopped side-loading my right-seat landings. It just started happening.



Don't let it worry you. It will come to you in due time.

The talking thing is much more natural with a real student than when you are role-playing with the instructor or examiner. That's how I felt, anyway.

 

[KennyFlys]

The talking thing is much more natural with a real student than when you are role-playing with the instructor or examiner. That's how I felt, anyway.

I agree. Once you start teaching, you don't even realize there was ever a problem.

 

[colomtnflyer]

Could it also be that you are trying to say too much?

A great lesson begins with a thorough pre-brief, where most of the real talking happens. Once you are in the aircraft, it should be reminders and guidance, not the introduction of new material.

You said it yourself- the aircraft is a very expensive classroom.

 

[121Dispatch]

Could it also be that you are trying to say too much?

A great lesson begins with a thorough pre-brief, where most of the real talking happens. Once you are in the aircraft, it should be reminders and guidance, not the introduction of new material.

You said it yourself- the aircraft is a very expensive classroom.

You know, during my personal de-brief, I've decided that's part of the problem. We had about 15-20 minutes of pre-flight briefing in the classroom dicussing "Slow Flight." I discussed when slow flight conditions will exist, aerodynamics of slow flight, power/flap settings, and what feels/sounds, etc. would be sensed.

As we got to the pracitice area, I found myself repeating the ground lesson we had just finished - instead of, "okay, let's start reducing power and adding flaps as we discussed, and remember how the controls will start to feel."
I went into "okay, power to 2000, which will cause the nose to drop, so back pressure - now put in flaps 10, as you do that the nose will rise initially, so forward pressure then some back pressure as the speed decays, now power 1500, see how the nose drops again, lets add some back pressure, and flaps 20..."

Even as I type this, I find myself getting behind, and the student wanting to say "shut up already, lemme work through what was previously briefed."

I've had some previous advice to the effect of "If you're not talking, your not teaching, so make sure you mouth is always moving." I can't say that I buy that - especially since students tend to pick things up by watching...which is why we always make sure we are doing things the right way - and not saying things like "well, it's okay for us today, but don't do this when you're out by yourself."

 

[Everskyward]

I've had some previous advice to the effect of "If you're not talking, your not teaching, so make sure you mouth is always moving." I can't say that I buy that - especially since students tend to pick things up by watching...

I think a lot of it depends on the student's learning style. Personally, as the student, I didn't like constant talking. It would distract me from what I was trying to think about. I did better with seeing something demonstrated then trying to copy it. I'm also not a fan of "follow me on the controls" because the student can't tell how much pressure the instructor is using anyway. However, these are all personal preferences. You'll find people who feel differently.

 

[KennyFlys]

I think a lot of it depends on the student's learning style. Personally, as the student, I didn't like constant talking. It would distract me from what I was trying to think about. I did better with seeing something demonstrated then trying to copy it. I'm also not a fan of "follow me on the controls" because the student can't tell how much pressure the instructor is using anyway. However, these are all personal preferences. You'll find people who feel differently.

Agreed. Talk through it as you're doing it or the first time a student is doing it. After that, make it short, small reminders for "small" corrections.

 

[nosehair]

advice to the effect of "If you're not talking, your not teaching, so make sure you mouth is always moving." I can't say that I buy that -

Bad advice. Not true. At all. Nor expected on a checkride.

The teaching comes at the table in the pre-flight brief. The talking in the airplane is just to bring the student's attention to specfic moves and instruments as you do the maneuver as you both discussed in the pre-flight brief.

It should be a comfortable mix of demonstration and verbal focus on sight pictures, horizons, attitudes, power settings or changes, rudder inputs, stuff like that, as you do it. Simple. Keep it Simple.

 

[jesse]

I think a lot of it depends on the student's learning style. Personally, as the student, I didn't like constant talking. It would distract me from what I was trying to think about. I did better with seeing something demonstrated then trying to copy it.

Agreed. Talk too much and I'm looking for a new instructor. If there isn't anything worth saying--don't say anything.

I'm also not a fan of "follow me on the controls" because the student can't tell how much pressure the instructor is using anyway.

Sort of agree. For almost all primary training including instrument--yes, completely worthless. There is some value in "follow me" on maneuvers that involve aggressive control changes (like aerobatics)..at least for me.

 

[Everskyward]

There is some value in "follow me" on maneuvers that involve aggressive control changes (like aerobatics)..at least for me.

Now that you mention it, that's probably true. But to me, except for the loop, which required a bit of "feel", aerobatics was a pretty mechanical thing. For me it was all about remembering the order and timing to put in the stick and rudder inputs. Many times it was full deflection one way or the other and not in a coordinated manner like I was accustomed to in other flying.

 

[nosehair]

it was all about remembering the order and timing to put in the stick and rudder inputs. Many times it was full deflection one way or the other and not in a coordinated manner like I was accustomed to in other flying.

This is what is needed more today in primary flight training in stall recovery, slips, and crosswind landings - more agressive control inputs.
Many times, nearly full rudder and aileron and more agressive elevator movements need to be done in quick, responsive, show-the-airplane-who's-boss type control inputs that the new student does not normaly do.

We are so focused on smoothness and 'coordination' that we somtimes forget that these maneuvers require abrubtness and crossing controls.

Having a student 'follow through' on the controls in these maneuvers can be a big eye-opener for the student.

 

[brcase]

Bad advice. Not true. At all. Nor expected on a checkride.

The teaching comes at the table in the pre-flight brief. The talking in the airplane is just to bring the student's attention to specfic moves and instruments as you do the maneuver as you both discussed in the pre-flight brief.

It should be a comfortable mix of demonstration and verbal focus on sight pictures, horizons, attitudes, power settings or changes, rudder inputs, stuff like that, as you do it. Simple. Keep it Simple.

Then how about "if you are not talking your have stopped scanning the instruments and horizon." While it is true that you do not need to talk all the time what I think examiners are looking for is that you can critic a maneuver while you are doing it. If you can't talk while doing a Steep turn it is probably because you are staring at one instrument or the horizon and are not scanning.
So Look at the instrument tell the examiner what it is telling you, Tell him what you are going to do about it and move on to the next indication of how the maneuver is going.

Exerpt of an example... (Steep Turn)

...We roll over into a 45 degree bank looking at the AI. Then I check the location of the cowling on the horizon and hold it there. The Altimeter says we are a bit low so I will add some back pressure and raise the nose on the horizon a bit. AI Is showing me a bit steep so I will roll out of the bank a bit. The Rate of Climb is now showing a bit of climb. The view of the horizon on the cowling now looks good. The Altitude is right on now. The Bank angle is perfect. We are approching the 270 degrees of turn....

Using this technique it should become fairly easy to talk through the maneuvers. Of course you have to know the maneuver well enough to know what you looking for. If you can find a private pilot or student pilot to be your practice student you can also practice talking them through the maneuver. I did this quite a bit when I was working on my CFI.

Hope that helps.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[dmccormack]

Then how about "if you are not talking your have stopped scanning the instruments and horizon." While it is true that you do not need to talk all the time what I think examiners are looking for is that you can critic a maneuver while you are doing it. If you can't talk while doing a Steep turn it is probably because you are staring at one instrument or the horizon and are not scanning.
So Look at the instrument tell the examiner what it is telling you, Tell him what you are going to do about it and move on to the next indication of how the maneuver is going.

Agree 100%.

For my CFI Checkride, I told the Examiner, "I'll treat you as a low time pilot moving up to a Bonanza -- you tell me when to stop..."

I think the purpose of the exercise is to test your ability to demonstrate, process, and explain clearly contemporaneously.

This does not mean it's expected or even desired to constantly do this while actually training students.

But -- while training students -- you will have to be able to do maneuvers, scan for traffic, listen to the radio, explain what's going on, and gauge the student's reaction and adjust accordingly.

 

[poadeleted20]

For my CFI Checkride, I told the Examiner, "I'll treat you as a low time pilot moving up to a Bonanza -- you tell me when to stop..."

For my CFI rides, I've always asked the examiner to set the scenario -- they usually have their own idea about how they want to run the flight test. But you do have to know what that scenario is -- level of training/experience, certificate/rating being pursued, etc.

 

[dmccormack]

For my CFI rides, I've always asked the examiner to set the scenario -- they usually have their own idea about how they want to run the flight test. But you do have to know what that scenario is -- level of training/experience, certificate/rating being pursued, etc.

I asked and he was vague and then moved on to another topic.

I seized the opportunity since he had never flown a Bonanza.

Who said tactics don't apply?