Inappropriate Information Harvesting

SCCutler

SCCutler

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Spike Cutler
...so Tommy is a little under the weather, and it's a weekend, so off to the Doc-in-the Box we go. As it's a place to which Tommy has never been before, I get to fill in the Big Long Pile of Paper.

many things appropriate - health history, insurance information, all that sort of thing. But they also ask for every shred of personal information about me - SSN, Drivers' License, that sort of stuff.

I resist the urge to write "Nunya," opting instead to leave these fields blank.

Amazing how many people blindly write down whatever information they are asked for , because it's on a "form."

I decline to participate in providing information that need not be provided. I gave proof of appropriate insurance and I am paying the co-pay at time of services.

What say you all?
 
Sorry you had to do all the garbage paper work. I have worked an Urgent Care for many years. The reason for a picture ID and Proof of insurance is to prove you are who you say you are. People try to use others ID and insurance to obtain free and or inappropriate medical care. The documents are protected and never released except by accepted protocols. :dunno:
 
A person's only defense these days is to prevaricate slightly....my ssn is 123456789, but oops I slipped and wrote 123456788!
 
I think this a more general problem in our society. Most people just do as they're asked without informing themselves and questioning the "why."

It's an epidemic. Body scanners, "mind if I search your car", Wikileaks, SSN on almost every form....

What you describe is just another example of the same problem.
 
Spike:I just provide what's necessary. You are probably aware of the Texas statute that says one needn't surrender their DL other than to a peace officer (and other cited circumstances). I have folks that want to take it all the time and make a copy. I tell them they are welcome to look, it's not leaving my possession. They say they need a copy and if push comes to shove I tell them to look at the statutes. I should carry a cite with me. Some are determined, but most just look. Everyone that looks at my DL DOES NOT NEED TO COPY IT!
Of course, if I don't get it back, I'm SOL and I don't need copies floating around everywhere.
I do what you do, they can have a copy of my proof of insurance and see identification. They'll fight hard to get my SSAN.
Recently hooked up utilities to a new house: they wanted everything or one must put up a deposit no matter how long they've been a customer.

Best,

Dave
 
Usually requests for SS# and DL are for assistance with potential collections.
 
Maj Geezer said:
The documents are protected and never released except by accepted protocols. :dunno:
Click to expand...

Do you realize that the problem isn't in the medical office? It's in the folks who pick it up, either while visiting the office, hacking, or from the trash.

In other words, official release is not the problem here, inadvertent access to the information is the problem.
 
For years now I have just left those fields blank or put a dash through them. What is amazing is that I don't even remember any time that they questioned why I didn't fill it in. I really believe that they will take it if they can get it but will accept you without that data if you don't fill it in..

The one exception to this was in Florida after Sun and Fun buying a freshwater fishing license. No way I was getting it without a SS #. And by the looks of the people working there and taking my SS it could have been on the internet in 15 minutes. I strongly considered passing on the fishing trip because of this.
 
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What gets me is when strangers call on the phone and start asking me questions about myself.

They get nowhere.
 
FWIW, I left the offending fields blank, and encountered no flak as a result thereof.

Palmpilot said:
What gets me is when strangers call on the phone and start asking me questions about myself.

They get nowhere.
Click to expand...

You'd be amazed how many people... just... answer.
 
Blank on many fields many times.

I was really annoyed a few years back when some physician's association was pushing family docs to ask -- including kids -- "Do you have guns in the house?"


:rolleyes2:
 
SCCutler said:
...so Tommy is a little under the weather, and it's a weekend, so off to the Doc-in-the Box we go. As it's a place to which Tommy has never been before, I get to fill in the Big Long Pile of Paper.

many things appropriate - health history, insurance information, all that sort of thing. But they also ask for every shred of personal information about me - SSN, Drivers' License, that sort of stuff.
Click to expand...

Why do I want to see your drivers license:
- because the federal goverment makes me do it:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/a...rs-need-know-about-complying-new-requirements

and as you are a lawyer, here is the federal register copy of it:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/fedreg/2007/november/071109redflags.pdf

This is the relevant paragraph:

New accounts
When verifying the identity of the person who is
opening a new account, reasonable procedures may include getting
a name, address, and identifi cation number and, for in-person
verifi cation, checking a current government-issued identifi cation card,
like a driver’s license or passport.

Doesn't mean that I have to take a copy of your DL, but in order to document that you are who you claim to be, I need to be able to jot down your DL number, name, DOB, address of record.

Why do I want your date of birth if it is Tommy who is being seen:
- because Spike is the 'insured' and the 'guarantor' in this transaction. Please note the attached copy of form CMS1500 (the standard form on which health insurance claims are submitted to the various insurers). The green framed box in the right upper corner of the form contains the information I need to submit to the insurer in order to get paid.

Why do I want to have your SSN:
- because I am about to extend you credit for the value of the services rendered to your kid. If neither your cheapskate HMO nor your deadbeat self end up paying the bill, I want to be able to at least sell it to collections for pennies on the dollar. If you are willing to pay the entire cost of the visit before you walk out the door (and get a refund of the balance once your insurance has paid), sure I can do without the SSN.

And no, I wont ask about your guns. Why ask a question if you know the answer ;) .
 

Attachments

  • CMS1500_for_Spike.pdf
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Hmmm.

I've been extending credit to clients for 20 years now, and have never yet asked a one of them for their DL or SSN.
 
SCCutler said:
Hmmm.

I've been extending credit to clients for 20 years now, and have never yet asked a one of them for their DL or SSN.
Click to expand...

Well, since october 2009 you are on thin ice if the FTC ever comes knocking (as for the not verifying identity before extending credit).

If you take new clients only on retainer, you are not covered by the rule.
 
I've always wondered as to why someone needs your marital status. What's the difference between divorced and single, except for the obvious reasons?
 
pookies said:
I've always wondered as to why someone needs your marital status. What's the difference between divorced and single, except for the obvious reasons?
Click to expand...

In the setting of health insurance claims, it matters only insofar as documenting the relationship between the two persons if one is on the others plan (parent/child,spouses).

Under the angle of recording demographics during e.g. a hospital/ER admission, it matters as to who information about the fact that you are there can be released to.
 
weilke said:
In the setting of health insurance claims, it matters only insofar as documenting the relationship between the two persons if one is on the others plan (parent/child,spouses).

Under the angle of recording demographics during e.g. a hospital/ER admission, it matters as to who information about the fact that you are there can be released to.
Click to expand...

Isn't that information on the HIPPA release form? Still not sure why a dentist would need to know if I'm divorced, single or widowed.
 
pookies said:
Isn't that information on the HIPPA release form? Still not sure why a dentist would need to know if I'm divorced, single or widowed.
Click to expand...
Since "single" is a correct answer even if you are divorced or widowed I would go with that if the other answers bother you. I mean what would you check if you were both divorced and widowed?
 
Everskyward said:
Since "single" is a correct answer even if you are divorced or widowed I would go with that if the other answers bother you. I mean what would you check if you were both divorced and widowed?
Click to expand...

They all feel like single to me. Although, there are some health insurances that you can still be covered even though your spouse is deceased.
 
pookies said:
Isn't that information on the HIPPA release form? Still not sure why a dentist would need to know if I'm divorced, single or widowed.
Click to expand...

Divorced/single/widowed makes no difference.

Married vs. 'other adult' makes a difference if one person is on the others health insurance.
 
pookies said:
They all feel like single to me. Although, there are some health insurances that you can still be covered even though your spouse is deceased.
Click to expand...
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant that I would go with "single" even if you are divorced or widowed since "single" properly describes your state. I guess it would be different if the choice was "never married".
 
Everskyward said:
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant that I would go with "single" even if you are divorced or widowed since "single" properly describes your state. I guess it would be different if the choice was "never married".
Click to expand...

Yeah. I was pointing out that they are all the same. Except for maybe widowed, since you can still have insurance from your deceased spouse.
 
pookies said:
Yeah. I was pointing out that they are all the same. Except for maybe widowed, since you can still have insurance from your deceased spouse.
Click to expand...
True. Can you also have insurance from your divorce agreement?
 
weilke said:
Divorced/single/widowed makes no difference.

Married vs. 'other adult' makes a difference if one person is on the others health insurance.
Click to expand...

And that info would be given further down the form "primary cardholder/relationship to primary card holder"
 
SCCutler said:
Hmmm.

I've been extending credit to clients for 20 years now, and have never yet asked a one of them for their DL or SSN.
Click to expand...
+1...very common in pretty much every business...
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Spike:I just provide what's necessary. You are probably aware of the Texas statute that says one needn't surrender their DL other than to a peace officer (and other cited circumstances). I have folks that want to take it all the time and make a copy. I tell them they are welcome to look, it's not leaving my possession. They say they need a copy and if push comes to shove I tell them to look at the statutes. I should carry a cite with me. Some are determined, but most just look. Everyone that looks at my DL DOES NOT NEED TO COPY IT!
Click to expand...

Here's one for you... I went into the Texas DMV last week to renew my driver's license. Had the old unexpired one with me. Lady at the desk asks if I have my social security card with me. When I say 'yes', she asks for it. She SCANS A COPY OF IT into their computer before giving it back to me. I should have asked WHY, but didn't. I was too busy getting my thumb prints scanned, wondering what bug I was going to catch from the hundreds of people who'd touched the glass on the scanner before me...
 
TangoWhiskey said:
wondering what bug I was going to catch from the hundreds of people who'd touched the glass on the scanner before me...
Click to expand...


...or the door knobs, the elevator buttons, ATM keypad and touch screens, restaurant menus, salt and pepper shakers, ketchup bottles, the handles at buffets, the pen to sign in with....... I can go on and on!!
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Lady at the desk asks if I have my social security card with me. When I say 'yes', she asks for it. She SCANS A COPY OF IT into their computer before giving it back to me. I should have asked WHY, but didn't.
Click to expand...

The 'RealID' act.

Whenever something is odd, there is a 1 in 2 chance of it being the federal goverments fault.

In order for the homeys to accept a drivers license for (e.g. identifying yourself to pass a TSA checkpoint), it needs to conform to the RealID requirements. Had you provided a pay-stub as evidence of your SSN, they would have scanned in the pay-stub.
 
I stopped donating blood - and told the person at the NY blood center that I would not start again until they stopped collecting my SS number. There is no reason they need that.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Spike:I just provide what's necessary. You are probably aware of the Texas statute that says one needn't surrender their DL other than to a peace officer (and other cited circumstances). I have folks that want to take it all the time and make a copy. I tell them they are welcome to look, it's not leaving my possession. They say they need a copy and if push comes to shove I tell them to look at the statutes. I should carry a cite with me. Some are determined, but most just look. Everyone that looks at my DL DOES NOT NEED TO COPY IT!
Click to expand...

Interesting. I believe CATS' requires testing facilities to retain a copy. Taken an FAA written recently? (I let 'em copy mine on Saturday... I figured it was better than getting my blood pressure up before a written test.)
 
sba55 said:
I think this a more general problem in our society. Most people just do as they're asked without informing themselves and questioning the "why."

It's an epidemic. Body scanners, "mind if I search your car", Wikileaks, SSN on almost every form....

What you describe is just another example of the same problem.
Click to expand...

For once, Felix and I agree on something.

I leave the forms blank. They don't need the info.
 
My SS Card says "FOR SOCIAL SECURITY PURPOSES -- NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION"
 
pookies said:
...or the door knobs, the elevator buttons, ATM keypad and touch screens, restaurant menus, salt and pepper shakers, ketchup bottles, the handles at buffets, the pen to sign in with....... I can go on and on!!
Click to expand...

Or money.... who knows how many hands that $20 bill passed through!!

Gary
 
timrj said:
I stopped donating blood - and told the person at the NY blood center that I would not start again until they stopped collecting my SS number. There is no reason they need that.
Click to expand...
Where I donate, they ask for the SSN, but accept "I won't provide that" as an answer.
 
I say this is one of the rasons that drove my current retirement from hospital medicine. Too d_mn many people telling me what to do, to the extent that I didn't get paid effectively, couldn't be the good guy, couldn't do good medicine.

The SSN is NOT a billing ID number but is used for that by about 1/3rd of our economy.

Why is the SSN on teh HCFA 1500? It's a Gub'mnt form!!!
 
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