IFR training - splitting costs

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UngaWunga

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UngaWunga
I'm going to start IFR training sometime soon. There's one other VFR pilot at my airport that also wants to IFR train with the same instructor. My 172 IFR cert., and has a 430W/3300, with two VORs with GS. Plenty for IFR training.

If we use my plane for training, suggestions on how to calculate costs? Ignoring fuel since that's easy to calculate per hour, what about other operational costs? I don't want to make money off this deal, but I'd like to have the other pilot contribute to the maintenance fund for also using my plane for training.

Plane is a 1973 172M.

Thanks
 
I thought about the same thing Unga..I own a PA28-180 and was gonna partner up with a buddy for my time.

Someone will probably call me a moron again, but here's what I understand from 61.113:

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

(d) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event flight described in§ 91.146, if the sponsor and pilot comply with the requirements of § 91.146.

(e) A private pilot may be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses that are directly related to search and location operations, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees, and the operation is sanctioned and under the direction and control of:

(1) A local, State, or Federal agency; or
(2) An organization that conducts search and location operations.

So my guess is if someone else flies with you, they are only on the hook for the fuel/oil or airport expenditures. There is no rental fee since it's your plane. What you contribute to your own maintenance fund is not something the other guy has to pay, and my guess is if he/she did, since it would not fall into any of the specific categoies in 61.113 it would be not legal to collect it.
 
What is the going rate for 172's in the local area, dry?

Take the lowest rental rate, subtract 5 or $10 and help your buddy out.


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JoseCuervo said:
What is the going rate for 172's in the local area, dry?

Take the lowest rental rate, subtract 5 or $10 and help your buddy out.
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$130/hr. But at this rate, they're trying to make a profit. I don't need to do that.
CFI is $45/hr

I know what the FAR/AIM says about costs. Maybe we can legally say the other pilot is covering the CFI costs or something.
 
UngaWunga said:
$130/hr. But at this rate, they're trying to make a profit. I don't need to do that.
CFI is $45/hr

I know what the FAR/AIM says about costs. Maybe we can legally say the other pilot is covering the CFI costs or something.
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$130/hour, dry for a 172???
 
Sorry, that's wet. Fuel is expensive at the field (5.25), figure 8 gallons per hour... $42. So about $90 dry.
 
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UngaWunga said:
Sorry, that's wet. Fuel is expensive at the field (5.25), figure 8 gallons per hour... $42. So about $90 dry.
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Would you be happy with $80 an hour?

If he needs 20 hours, that gets you $1600 to go to your insurance and your annual.

I am guessing that would cover your insurance and your annual for a year.
Seems like a good deal for both parties.
 
Figure out your operating costs for the last year,then you can figure an hourly rate dry
 
JoseCuervo said:
Would you be happy with $80 an hour?

If he needs 20 hours, that gets you $1600 to go to your insurance and your annual.

I am guessing that would cover your insurance and your annual for a year.
Seems like a good deal for both parties.
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It's a great deal for both parties, but I fail to see how it's legal.

I'd love to take lessons with a friend in my plane, split costs for fuel/oil and charge him "maintenance" costs as well, but I fail to see how it's either appropriate or legal. I can see splitting the cost of the CFII's time and gas, but my friend isn't "renting" my plane. It's not his problem I have costs such as maintenance that I chose to absorb by purchasing the plane in the first place. And as such I shouldn't be charging him, it's not helping him, it's exploiting his situation for my gain.

If I'm following the "math" correctly for the actual costs:

45 / hr for gas (up from 42 to make it nicer)
45 / hr for the CFI

You pay ~90 / hr for the plane by yourself. Your buddy gets in the plane and you both should be paying $45 / hour approximately if you split the costs, but you're gonna charge him almost double?

Where's that other $45 going? If it's going in your pocket, I fail to see how that's legal or ethical. Heck, even if he was a "passenger" and not receiving instruction, he'd only be on the hook for what, $22.50 / hr for gas at the most?

Yeah your buddy gets a discount on "renting" a plane and you get to put money you aren't really even supposed to be collecting for maintenance on a private plane? Good luck with that :)
 
I fail to see how 61.113 applies at all. While your buddy is flying, is he not PIC? He's paying for his half of airplane expenses, hes not paying you to sit in the airplane. While you're flying, you're PIC and paying for your expenses.

This seems more along the lines of you're renting the airplane to him while hes flying and can be whatever amount you want to charge. Assuming of course your insurance is cool with you "renting" your plane. Mine has provisions that only I can do training in my own plane, no one else.

Edit: Of course "renting" brings in a whole bunch of other issues.. 100hr inspection?
 
Jeff, that's not how I'm reading how everyone is talking about moving forward with this. Sounds like the OP is at a field where his buddy can rent a plane for $90 / hr dry or 130 / hr wet. Unga owns a plane so there's no rental costs. He's going to charge his buddy $80 / hr for the privilege of using his plane (with him in it as well) and a CFI. Total costs for his friend should be $45 / hr, look at my math above, which includes gas and the CFI.

What I'm seeing people propose is that the buddy should pay almost double ($80 / hr). Which is instead of $180 / hr (135 wet + 45 CFI) that the planeless buddy would pay on his own. Sounds good right?

Problem is that $80 / hr is about double what his friend SHOULD be paying and Unga is pocketing the extra $45 for maintenance costs which he's not eligible for since his plane isn't a rental.

Make sense?
 
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ifly4fun said:
Edit: Of course "renting" brings in a whole bunch of other issues.. 100hr inspection?
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FAR 91.409 said:
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section... no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter
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OP is not giving instruction, only acting as leasor of his plane.
 
ifly4fun said:
I fail to see how 61.113 applies at all. While your buddy is flying, is he not PIC? He's paying for his half of airplane expenses, hes not paying you to sit in the airplane. While you're flying, you're PIC and paying for your expenses.

This seems more along the lines of you're renting the airplane to him while hes flying and can be whatever amount you want to charge. Assuming of course your insurance is cool with you "renting" your plane. Mine has provisions that only I can do training in my own plane, no one else.
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I agree.

ifly4fun said:
Edit: Of course "renting" brings in a whole bunch of other issues.. 100hr inspection?
Click to expand...
Insurance, yes, but I don't think the OP is providing the "instruction", so no need for a 100 hour.

I'd consult the Blue Book for an hourly adjustment to the airplane's value based on engine hours and add twice that to the direct cost of operation.

dtuuri
 
DJTorrente said:
OP is not giving instruction, only acting as leasor of his plane.
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Thats what I was saying, didn't mean to insinuate that he was having any part of the instruction. While the buddy is learning, he could be responsible for all the costs during that time.. Plane, CFI, etc. I don't see how the "for hire" rules would apply at all, but technically if hes paying for anything more than gas, he could be considered as "renting" which is whole other issue.

I'll be the first to admit my ignorance with the regs, but I'm about to get into the same deal and would love to find another IFR student to help split some costs, so this topic is of interest.

I guess as an alternative, just have your buddy pay for the hanger for a few months.. and gas. Or something along those lines.
 
dtuuri said:
Insurance, yes, but I don't think the OP is providing the "instruction", so no need for a 100 hour.

dtuuri
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying that - I thought 100hrs applied to rental ops, not the training side. Makes sense now.
 
Caramon13 said:
Jeff, that's not how I'm reading how everyone is talking about moving forward with this. Sounds like the OP is at a field where his buddy can rent a plane for $90 / hr dry or 130 / hr wet. Unga owns a plane so there's no rental costs. He's going to charge his buddy $80 / hr for the privilege of using his plane (with him in it as well) and a CFI. Total costs for his friend should be $45 / hr, look at my math above, which includes gas and the CFI.

What I'm seeing people propose is that the buddy should pay almost double ($80 / hr). Which is instead of $180 / hr (135 wet + 45 CFI) that the planeless buddy would pay on his own. Sounds good right?

Problem is that $80 / hr is about double what his friend SHOULD be paying and Unga is pocketing the extra $45 for maintenance costs which he's not eligible for since his plane isn't a rental.

Make sense?
Click to expand...


If the Buddy is sitting in the Left Seat....

And the CFI is sitting in the Right Seat....

The OP must be sitting in the ................ BACK SEAT.

At that point, unless the plane is a 727 with a flight Engineer, the guy in the back seat is called a PASSENGER.

I know of no regulation that limits the amount of money a passenger can be paid to ride in the back of an airplane, looking out the window.


All the regulations above were in reference to a private pilot being paid for sitting in the Left Seat (actually, acting as PIC). In the original scenario, the Buddy in the left seat is paying, not being paid.




(I would hate to open the can of worms of discussing the fact a "discounted" dry cost on the plane might somehow be considered "compensation" by the Chief Counsel.....) :mad2:
 
Some of you guys spend WAY too much time dissecting the regs instead of flying your aeroplanes
 
Holy cow $130 for a 172 to rent! I pay $100 wet rate for one with a Garmin 530W or 650 GTN.
 
$130 and $100 are bargains imo..if I was to rent one here it would be 150+ for steam gauge and almost $180 wet for a G1000.
 
It amazes me how thoroughly the FAA had cowed the pilot population. They want nothing to do with more pilots or growing aviation; they'd never be able to control a larger population so completely. TIA.
 
First, the OP is not 'holding out', unless he's put that infamous note on the FBO bulletin board.

It's actually common for plane owners to rent out their airplanes to other people. The only FAR that might apply is the requirement for 100 hour inspections.

The main issue in a case like this is insurance. Probably the OP should add his buddy to his policy as a 'named pilot'. Out of an abundance of caution if I were the OP I'd ask his friend to invest $200 in a non-owner liability policy also.

Ron's no longer with us, but his ghost will linger on for decades. ;)
 
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