IFR stadium flyover

[NoHeat]

I was in Kinnick stadium today for the Iowa-Michigan football game. There was a flyover just as the national anthem concluded, but I couldn't tell you what kind of planes they were. Or even how many there were. That's because I couldn't see them. Nobody else could, either. Here's why:

KCID 051552Z 16010KT 3SM BR OVC005 05/03 A3008

Yep, they were in the clouds. Dense stratus clouds.

Flyovers are usually supposed to fly along the length of the field, right down the middle, but I think they missed. It sounded like they were well behind the press box, maybe a quarter-mile away. Which is as good as I do on VOR approaches sometimes.

It must be a tough job to to a stadium flyover, in formation, entirely in the clouds. I'm not sure if the fans got much out of the experience, but I was impressed that anyone would even try to fly that mission.

 

[poadeleted20]

Not as impressed as their squadron commander will be if s/he hears about it, and that won't be in a good way, either. There are weather mins for such things, and I don't think they are nearly as low as 500-3. What is it about Kinnick Stadium which encourages such silliness? Y'all remember the USAF pilot who lost his wings over a lower-than-authorized flyover there a couple of years ago, right? The one who got hosed because of video of it posted on YouTube?

 

[roncachamp]

I was in Kinnick stadium today for the Iowa-Michigan football game. There was a flyover just as the national anthem concluded, but I couldn't tell you what kind of planes they were. Or even how many there were. That's because I couldn't see them. Nobody else could, either. Here's why:

KCID 051552Z 16010KT 3SM BR OVC005 05/03 A3008

Yep, they were in the clouds. Dense stratus clouds.

Flyovers are usually supposed to fly along the length of the field, right down the middle, but I think they missed. It sounded like they were well behind the press box, maybe a quarter-mile away. Which is as good as I do on VOR approaches sometimes.

It must be a tough job to to a stadium flyover, in formation, entirely in the clouds. I'm not sure if the fans got much out of the experience, but I was impressed that anyone would even try to fly that mission.

How do you know they were in the clouds?

 

[roncachamp]

Not as impressed as their squadron commander will be if s/he hears about it, and that won't be in a good way, either. There are weather mins for such things, and I don't think they are nearly as low as 500-3. What is it about Kinnick Stadium which encourages such silliness? Y'all remember the USAF pilot who lost his wings over a lower-than-authorized flyover there a couple of years ago, right? The one who got hosed because of video of it posted on YouTube?

What silliness is evident in the OP?

 

[dmccormack]

I was in Kinnick stadium today for the Iowa-Michigan football game. There was a flyover just as the national anthem concluded, but I couldn't tell you what kind of planes they were. Or even how many there were. That's because I couldn't see them. Nobody else could, either. Here's why:

KCID 051552Z 16010KT 3SM BR OVC005 05/03 A3008

Yep, they were in the clouds. Dense stratus clouds.

Flyovers are usually supposed to fly along the length of the field, right down the middle, but I think they missed. It sounded like they were well behind the press box, maybe a quarter-mile away. Which is as good as I do on VOR approaches sometimes.

It must be a tough job to to a stadium flyover, in formation, entirely in the clouds. I'm not sure if the fans got much out of the experience, but I was impressed that anyone would even try to fly that mission.

That sounds more like ground fog than "Dense stratus clouds."

 

[NoHeat]

That sounds more like ground fog than "Dense stratus clouds."

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Okay, dense stratus clouds is my phraseology. They weren't cumulus. The atmosphere was stable with no precipitation within hundreds of miles. There was a distinctive ceiling even if it was a low one. And despite being 11 AM it was pretty dark. That's why I called them that.

 

[NoHeat]

Not as impressed as their squadron commander will be if s/he hears about it, and that won't be in a good way, either. There are weather mins for such things, and I don't think they are nearly as low as 500-3. What is it about Kinnick Stadium which encourages such silliness? Y'all remember the USAF pilot who lost his wings over a lower-than-authorized flyover there a couple of years ago, right? The one who got hosed because of video of it posted on YouTube?

I don't know what weather minimums apply to flyovers. So I don't have any reason to think they were violated.

I don't even know what kind of clearance you would get from ATC, since there's no approach chart for Kinnick Stadium -- maybe a direct clearance to a nearby airport would allow them to fly over whatever they chose?

Yes, it's the same stadium where a USAF flyover a year ago was too low. In the case a year ago, the AF pilots of the T-38s had no authorization to fly lower than 1000 feet above obstacles, but their actual altitude was mere tens of feet above the press box. That thrilled the crowd, but got the lead pilot busted. He was about to retire anyway.

 

[NoHeat]

How do you know they were in the clouds?

I don't for sure. I know they weren't below the clouds because I heard but did not see them. I suppose it's possible they were VFR on top, but that seems unlikely because it was so dark on the ground that the tops must have been many thousands of feet AGL, and we could hear the planes quite loudly.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't know what weather minimums apply to flyovers. So I don't have any reason to think they were violated.

1.6.2. Weather Minimums. Weather must allow operations under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) in accordance with AFI 11-202, Volume 3, General Flight Rules, and applicable AFI 11-2MDS, Volume 3, MDS Specific Operations Procedures. Weather minimums are “flyover minimum altitude” plus 500 feet and 3 miles visibility. The MAJCOM or mission commander may set higher minimums based on the nature of the event, local terrain, or other factors.
...
1.6.3. Altitude Minimums. The minimum altitudes published in AFI 11-202 and in Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations for congested and non-congested areas apply.

Since 91.119 sets the minimum over an open-air assembly of persons (like a football crowd) at 1000 above the highest obstacle within 2000 feet horizontally, the minimum altitude for the flyover would be 1000 above the top of the stadium, and the ceiling would have to be 500 feet above that. If the ceiling was only 500 feet in the area of the stadium, there is no way this flyover could be done legally.

I don't even know what kind of clearance you would get from ATC, since there's no approach chart for Kinnick Stadium -- maybe a direct clearance to a nearby airport would allow them to fly over whatever they chose?

As stated in the quoted reg, it would have to be done VFR, and among other things, that means staying at least 500 below the bases. If the bases were 500 AGL...

THe only thing they could have done legally was to be operating on radar vectors from the local ATC facility at/above the MVA in hopes of breaking out in VMC and descending under VFR to their approved flyover altiude. When they don't break out, they just continue at the MVA and hope that they're heard if not seen. That may have been what happened, but even then, a commander might question the judgement of a flight lead who even tried that when the weather was so far below minimums for the event. Even the aircraft capable of low-level terrain following flight are prohibited from doing that in a standard formation -- the most we were allowed to do in the F-111 was 4-mile trail using air-to-air TACAN to maintain separation.

Yes, it's the same stadium where a USAF flyover a year ago was too low. In the case a year ago, the AF pilots of the T-38s had no authorization to fly lower than 1000 feet above obstacles, but their actual altitude was mere tens of feet above the press box. That thrilled the crowd, but got the lead pilot busted. He was about to retire anyway.

The press reports indicate he resigned in lieu of court martial No pension or retirement benefits when you do that -- you just save yourself from going to jail and then leaving with a dishonorable or bad conduct discharge. He also lost his wings, which effectively elimintates any airline job after leaving the Air Force.

So, again -- what is it about Kinnick Stadium that induces military aviators to do dumb things?

 

[dmccormack]

If there was OVC 005 as stated in the OP, how do you know it wasn't clear and a million above that?

 

[dmccormack]

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Okay, dense stratus clouds is my phraseology. They weren't cumulus. The atmosphere was stable with no precipitation within hundreds of miles. There was a distinctive ceiling even if it was a low one. And despite being 11 AM it was pretty dark. That's why I called them that.

Low ground fog can result in a reported "ceiling" with 1/4 vis or less, even though it's VFR above.

I flew over/near plenty of IFR airports last week --KJST, KAAO, KHMZ -- all were fogged in, but it was gorgeous VMC over the blanket of fog.

 

[Everskyward]

If there was OVC 005 as stated in the OP, how do you know it wasn't clear and a million above that?

OK but what is the point of doing a flyover if the spectators can't see you. I guess they can hear you...

 

[silver-eagle]

OK but what is the point of doing a flyover if the spectators can't see you. I guess they can hear you...

I suspect the fly-bys are done for team practice and time on target coordination. It sounds like they hit their mark just fine.
If it was a low level fog (avective fog off the water), it could be several 100 ' thick, giving the appearance of a much heavier cloud layer.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

If there was OVC 005 as stated in the OP, how do you know it wasn't clear and a million above that?

Note the bolded part quoted....although "pretty dark" is open to interpretation

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Okay, dense stratus clouds is my phraseology. They weren't cumulus. The atmosphere was stable with no precipitation within hundreds of miles. There was a distinctive ceiling even if it was a low one. And despite being 11 AM it was pretty dark. That's why I called them that.

OK but what is the point of doing a flyover if the spectators can't see you. I guess they can hear you...

Very true.

I wonder if they were flying anyway, and assuming they were safe and legal to do so, decided to fly near the stadium in case it was clear? I heard (perhaps incorrectly) that these fly-bys count towards the duty requirement of the ANG.

 

[RotorAndWing]

As far as Fly overs by military aircraft are concerned, they are allowed to get a waiver from 14 CFR 91.119 (Minimum Altitudes). The FSDO in the district the Fly over is being conducted can grant the waiver. 14 CFR 91.905 list the regulations that are eligible for waivers.

I wonder if they were flying anyway, and assuming they were safe and legal to do so, decided to fly near the stadium in case it was clear? I heard (perhaps incorrectly) that these fly-bys count towards the duty requirement of the ANG.

I would suspect you may be correct.

 

[poadeleted20]

I wonder if they were flying anyway, and assuming they were safe and legal to do so, decided to fly near the stadium in case it was clear?

You mean they just happened to be on a regular training mission in the area, and just decided on the spur of the moment to fly by the stadium? That would be a major flight discipline violation, probably resulting in loss of wings and other punishment for the flight lead, plus other adverse actions for the wingmen who did not object to lead's actions. You just don't do a fly-by over an NCAA Division I stadium without coordination and approval.

I heard (perhaps incorrectly) that these fly-bys count towards the duty requirement of the ANG.

It would be more accurate to say that those fly-by's are done in conjunction with regular, required training activities, not that the fly-by itself counts for anything.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I wonder if they were flying anyway, and assuming they were safe and legal to do so, decided to fly near the stadium in case it was clear? I heard (perhaps incorrectly) that these fly-bys count towards the duty requirement of the ANG.

Chances are the flyover was already scheduled and approved. Not sure where they launched from, but since it was a scheduled event one would assume they went ahead and flew it, got there and found it over cast, flew back.

Other than that your guess is as good as anyone elses.

 

[poadeleted20]

As far as Fly overs by military aircraft are concerned, they are allowed to get a waiver from 14 CFR 91.119 (Minimum Altitudes). The FSDO in the district the Fly over is being conducted can grant the waiver. 14 CFR 91.905 list the regulations that are eligible for waivers.

You should read AFI 11-209 as well as the FAA rules. Even if the FAA would approve it, the 1000-above rule still applies to event fly-by's performed by all USAF fixed-wing aircraft the other than the Thunderbirds.