Ifr pop up clearances...pros and cons

Velocity173 said:
Having an IFR flight plan on file and trying to pick it up at your destination will be useless. First, even if hadn't timed out yet (2 hrs after ETD), the controller won't have an inbound on you because it was never activated. Second, they can't activate it on their end (departure message/ amendment) because the computer is still showing the aircraft on the ground at the departure field.
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If I put a flight plan in from a fix along the way and I contact the correct facility to get my clearance, the information seems to be readily available to the controller. While they don't have the actual strip, there must be a fairly quick way to pull it off the system as they usually come back with the clearance after a minute or two.
 
weilke said:
If I put a flight plan in from a fix along the way and I contact the correct facility to get my clearance, the information seems to be readily available to the controller. While they don't have the actual strip, there must be a fairly quick way to pull it off the system as they usually come back with the clearance after a minute or two.
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Only if that controller is the one whose airspace overlies your departure airport. Other than that, they'd have to call center to do an amendment (AM) on your present position to put you inside the current controller's airspace. The Flight Data Input Output "Fido" computer won't let a controller amend a strip outside their airspace. They'll get an error "not your control."

If you file with a starting fix inside that controller's airspace or file with AFSS enroute, then yes, they'll get a strip on you.
 
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I've never had issues doing a popup IFR around here mainly because it's BFE airspace. I've done it several times after a training flight and noticed a cloud deck had formed below us. Center is so use to it, they ask if we are just needing the GPS back in before we get our clearance.

I wish we could do VFR departures in the 121 world. I've sat on the ramp in Scraton, PA for almost 2 hours waiting on my IFR release for a 20 minute max flight. Apparently, it takes 2 hours to make a 4 mile hole in the arrivals. :mad:
 
I've had pretty good popup experience. I think in all my attempts to airfile I got exactly TWO times I got sent to FSS to file. One was ZBW and you wouldn't believe the clearance I got back as a result. The other was one bad day at GSO when I guess they were busy.

The funniest one was on my way to Oshkosh a few years back. Now, we get there early (several days before the NOTAM starts). I'm bopping along on a direct line from about Kenosha (where I clear the Chicago class B going up the lake shore) direct to Oshkosh. I'm getting flight following from MKE and I'm looking at the XM Weather and it looks like it's closing up under us and OSH is IFR.

27K: Looks like Oshkosh is IFR ahead. Can I get a clearance from you or do I have to go to FSS.
MKE: <SiGH>
yes he literally sighs over the air like, crap, it's starting already
MKE: Are you rated and equipped?
27K: Affirmative.
MKE: Cleared direct Oshkosh, maintain 4000, expect the VOR 9 approach.
27K: How about the RNAV 9.
MKE: OK, expect that.

Broke out at 900' over the show. New experience arriving that way.
 
You just have to have some situational awareness with these things. One gotcha is that if you file an IFR flight plan for a long journey, you're expected to pick it up in the airspace where you filed it. So you can't fly 200nm VFR and then expect the next controller to have your IFR flight plan. Pop up clearances seem to be less of an issue if you have a safe VFR margin and you're trying to get into an IFR of MVFR field.

Departing, however, seems to be less likely to succeed. I heard a guy depart from an uncontrolled field near the SAT Class C the other day and call up Approach for his IFR clearance. The controller literally chuckled at him and said "Sir, you're not going to be able to get an IFR clearance this close to San Antonio unless you wait a while. Advise you maintain VFR and head west." Try that on a very marginal VFR day and your only option might be to turn around and land.
 
You never want to takeoff without your clearance issued unless you are sure you can stick it out VFR until they give it for sure. But in my experience, unless you're in a busy terminal area frequency, getting your (previously filed) clearance is never an issue. In most cases, air filing with approach/center is a non issue as well.

One thing you also need to be sure of when you're picking up in the air is that ATC may need you to be able to climb VFR to the minimum instrument altitude.

Of course, what you don't want to do is depart within the SFRA without your clearance and in IMC and crash your plane as a result.
 
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Had my first Pop-Up clearance yesterday during an IFR training flight. Was a pretty cool process. Started the flight with plenty of visibility and in reasonable forecast in the area within the expected timeframe of our flight knowing the weather was gong to deteriorate quickly. Started the flight VFR and within a few minutes the clouds basically just dropped. I couldn't se if happen as I was under the foggles but my CFII asked me to call approach for a pop-up clearance. This was a great training flight for two reasons. # 1 and most important, weather forecast is simply a forecast and can go south on you at the drop of a hat. # 2 got actual experience getting a pop-up clearance vs just filing on the ground. All in all, a great lesson and flying day.
 
If you're in any kind of busy terminal airspace, a good approach is to file IFR, pick up clearance on the ground, but tell them you can depart VFR and activate in the air. This is more efficient than cold calling for the clearance in the air because all the basics of the clearance, including route amendments, are already taken care of on the ground.

You might have to wait for a few minutes to get away from conflicting IFR traffic in the area (the reason you couldn't get your release on the ground to begin with), but in my experience is doesn't take long before they can convert you over to IFR. Re-routes are extremely common where I fly, hence, I'd rather get that routing on the ground rather than in the air.
 
coma24 said:
If you're in any kind of busy terminal airspace, a good approach is to file IFR, pick up clearance on the ground, but tell them you can depart VFR and activate in the air. This is more efficient than cold calling for the clearance in the air because all the basics of the clearance, including route amendments, are already taken care of on the ground.

You might have to wait for a few minutes to get away from conflicting IFR traffic in the area (the reason you couldn't get your release on the ground to begin with), but in my experience is doesn't take long before they can convert you over to IFR. Re-routes are extremely common where I fly, hence, I'd rather get that routing on the ground rather than in the air.
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You always have really nice real world practical advice. And I thank you for that.
 
coma24 said:
If you're in any kind of busy terminal airspace, a good approach is to file IFR, pick up clearance on the ground, but tell them you can depart VFR and activate in the air. This is more efficient than cold calling for the clearance in the air because all the basics of the clearance, including route amendments, are already taken care of on the ground.

You might have to wait for a few minutes to get away from conflicting IFR traffic in the area (the reason you couldn't get your release on the ground to begin with), but in my experience is doesn't take long before they can convert you over to IFR. Re-routes are extremely common where I fly, hence, I'd rather get that routing on the ground rather than in the air.
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I didn't know this could officially be done but I accidentally did it on a flight from Los Angeles are to Santa Ynez. It was CAVU day and I had filed just for practice. Wife and I were holding short waiting for release for awhile and they said it would be at least another 10 min. I told them never mind and we would just go VFR. Departed VFR, switched over to departure frequency to get VFR flight following..just said 'with a VFR request' and the guy starts giving me vectors and then says he'll have my IFR clearance in a few miles... he knew our flight plan ,etc...
 
coma24 said:
If you're in any kind of busy terminal airspace, a good approach is to file IFR, pick up clearance on the ground, but tell them you can depart VFR and activate in the air. This is more efficient than cold calling for the clearance in the air because all the basics of the clearance, including route amendments, are already taken care of on the ground.

You might have to wait for a few minutes to get away from conflicting IFR traffic in the area (the reason you couldn't get your release on the ground to begin with), but in my experience is doesn't take long before they can convert you over to IFR. Re-routes are extremely common where I fly, hence, I'd rather get that routing on the ground rather than in the air.
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That is the standard procedure Potomac TRACON uses on good weather days. It also tends to shorten the route as you are not tied to DPs and they don't have to provide separation.
 
FlyingMonkey said:
I didn't know this could officially be done but I accidentally did it on a flight from Los Angeles are to Santa Ynez. It was CAVU day and I had filed just for practice. Wife and I were holding short waiting for release for awhile and they said it would be at least another 10 min. I told them never mind and we would just go VFR. Departed VFR, switched over to departure frequency to get VFR flight following..just said 'with a VFR request' and the guy starts giving me vectors and then says he'll have my IFR clearance in a few miles... he knew our flight plan ,etc...
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That's a little different. I'm saying you file on the ground, pick the up the clearance on the ground, but do not get an IFR release (assume they've said 'hold for release'). Instead, inform the controller you can depart VFR. In your case, you filed on the ground, then called approach in the air, now approach is going to issue you your IFR clearance in the air. That's not a terrible thing, but if the route is a total cluster, it's better to take that re-route on the ground rather than learning about it in the air.

TL;DR: in the midwest, where direct GPS is common, I'd just file on the ground and call for it in the air. Otherwise, in environments where more complex routes are issued, I'd file on ground, call for it on ground, then advise them you can depart VFR to avoid a lengthy IFR delay. Once you're talking to approach, they'll advise you when you're clear of conflicting traffic and can consider yourself IFR.
 
coma24 said:
That's a little different. I'm saying you file on the ground, pick the up the clearance on the ground, but do not get an IFR release (assume they've said 'hold for release'). Instead, inform the controller you can depart VFR. In your case, you filed on the ground, then called approach in the air, now approach is going to issue you your IFR clearance in the air. That's not a terrible thing, but if the route is a total cluster, it's better to take that re-route on the ground rather than learning about it in the air.

TL;DR: in the midwest, where direct GPS is common, I'd just file on the ground and call for it in the air. Otherwise, in environments where more complex routes are issued, I'd file on ground, call for it on ground, then advise them you can depart VFR to avoid a lengthy IFR delay. Once you're talking to approach, they'll advise you when you're clear of conflicting traffic and can consider yourself IFR.
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Thanks for this. I'll be doing this a lot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
FlyingMonkey said:
Departed VFR, switched over to departure frequency to get VFR flight following..just said 'with a VFR request' and the guy starts giving me vectors and then says he'll have my IFR clearance in a few miles... he knew our flight plan ,etc...
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I had a similar thing a while back...filed IFR via Foreflight on the Ipad cuz it did not look like the marine layer was gonna burn off before departure but it did right at wheels up, so we departed our uncontrolled field VFR which is what I wanted for that flight anyway.

I called NorCal for Flight Following once airborne and he comes back with "I have your clearance, advise when ready to copy"...talk about service....he was ready for me!
 
If you land at an uncontrolled airport, no tower, do you have to close a pop up over the radio or phone to ATC or FSS? For that matter do you have to close with the tower if there is one?
 
coloradobluesky said:
If you land at an uncontrolled airport, no tower, do you have to close a pop up over the radio or phone to ATC or FSS? For that matter do you have to close with the tower if there is one?
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You have to close any IFR flight plan yourself when landing at an uncontrolled airport. You can cancel IFR on approach if you are still in contact with ATC underneath an overcast (by at least 500 feet). A popup is still an IFR flight plan. Otherwise, how does ATC know you're done with the airspace so they can send someone else down the approach?

Tower closes all IFR flight plans if there is one and it is operating, and you haven't canceled on the approach.
 
I filed IFR last week from Petaluma, CA to Denver Centennial. Filed direct at FL190. Petaluma has no tower, so I departed VFR and called Oakland Center for my clearance. I didn't even have to ask for it; as soon as I gave them my tail number they told me that they could see that I was airborne and to stand by for my clearance. And they gave it to me as filed. No big deal and everyone was happy.
 
colojo said:
I filed IFR last week from Petaluma, CA to Denver Centennial. Filed direct at FL190. Petaluma has no tower, so I departed VFR and called Oakland Center for my clearance. I didn't even have to ask for it; as soon as I gave them my tail number they told me that they could see that I was airborne and to stand by for my clearance. And they gave it to me as filed. No big deal and everyone was happy.
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I believe you can reach ZOA from the ground at that airport. You can certainly reach FSS. I prefer to copy while the airplane isn't moving, if possible. On a nice day, that airspace can be a total zoo. Petaluma gets busy, and has ultralights and power gliders sharing space with RVs.
 
MAKG1 said:
I believe you can reach ZOA from the ground at that airport. You can certainly reach FSS. I prefer to copy while the airplane isn't moving, if possible. On a nice day, that airspace can be a total zoo. Petaluma gets busy, and has ultralights and power gliders sharing space with RVs.
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All good points. I departed at 6am on a Saturday and had the place to myself.
 
colojo said:
All good points. I departed at 6am on a Saturday and had the place to myself.
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At 6AM this time of year, there is usually an overcast below 1500 feet, possibly much lower, and I'd really want the clearance on the ground. Apparently it wasn't so when you left. It's a very wide valley, so there is some maneuvering room to stay under the clouds along the river. But there are a couple of nasty obstructions downstream from there.
 
I've never had an issue getting pop up clearances in the air and I used to do it all the time. Like let's say I'm going to San Diego and the route is clear but I need a clearance at the end to get in. No brainer, I'd rather fly direct and get a pop up rather than do an LA basin tour.

Same with short flights. Take off VFR, climb above MVA, get your clearance, and bam, you're there. I've even established myself on the localizer before calling in for my clearance. No backlash from ATC, less workload for them.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I've never had an issue getting pop up clearances in the air and I used to do it all the time. Like let's say I'm going to San Diego and the route is clear but I need a clearance at the end to get in. No brainer, I'd rather fly direct and get a pop up rather than do an LA basin tour.

Same with short flights. Take off VFR, climb above MVA, get your clearance, and bam, you're there. I've even established myself on the localizer before calling in for my clearance. No backlash from ATC, less workload for them.
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Done literally hundreds of them in the Army. You can get them below the MVA as well. "Crusader33, can you maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance until reaching 2,000?"
 
MAKG1 said:
cancel IFR on approach if you are still in contact with ATC underneath an overcast (by at least 500 feet).
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Properly, you can cancel in the air if you are in VMC. Your statement "underneath the overcast by 500'" represents neither a necessary or suffifient condition to cancel an IFR plan.
 
flyingron said:
Properly, you can cancel in the air if you are in VMC. Your statement "underneath the overcast by 500'" represents neither a necessary or suffifient condition to cancel an IFR plan.
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While literally true, you would have to still be talking to approach at 700 AGL for that not to be a necessary condition. You have a more pressing concern than avoiding making a phone call under that condition. Remember, you're on an instrument approach, not descending to a remote backcountry airstrip under 14500 Class G.
 
Not every IFR destination has a 700' transition area (and some don't have any at all). And in many cases you can be talking to approach/center at such altitudes.
You also need have sufficient VFR visibility for the airspace you are in, in addition to cloud clearance.
 
If you are going XC, do ATC a favor and file, so they have your info already, then you can pick up in the air if it is VFR or MVFR. If it's really low, you are going to get a void time anyway to safely depart at a non-towered airport. The risk of a pure popup is you may have to loiter quite a wile to get your clearance. Meanwhile you will either be flying in circles, or flying out of departure's airspace, then you can start over, etc. If it's MVFR you could fly yourself into a weather corner, or maybe not have enough altitude to talk to ATC at all. From my field, you need to have at least 3000 MSL to pick up Syracuse, so if ceilings are below that, you need a void time to get out. If it's 5000 OVC and I want to get above, then I file IFR and pick up in the air. It helps to know where they are going to send you in your airspace typically, so you can fly toward that first fix while waiting for clearance.

When popups really shine is for converting VFR to IFR en route. For example, on a nice VFR trip you find that at your destination the cloud deck you are flying above has gone from scattered to broken. No big deal. Just ask for a popup clearance to fly the approach into your destination. This is usually easy for ATC to do except at the busiest of airspace.
 
[QUOTE="chemgeek, post: 2082697, member: 6826"
When popups really shine is for converting VFR to IFR en route. For example, on a nice VFR trip you find that at your destination the cloud deck you are flying above has gone from scattered to broken. No big deal. Just ask for a popup clearance to fly the approach into your destination. This is usually easy for ATC to do except at the busiest of airspace.[/QUOTE]

Especially, if you're already getting radar services.
 
The one time I was refused a pop up clearance was dealing with Chicago ATC. I needed to be high enough to reach their remote transmitter site. Climbed out through openings in a layer of scattered. When they could finally hear me she was about half hysterical and and it took ten minutes of repeatedly calling her to be acknowledged one time - and that was a clipped "stay out of my airspace".
Under the clouds we chugged along in eye straining haze staying just far enough offshore to avoid the Chicago B. It was long bumpy hours around the bottom of the lake and back up to the Saginaw Michigan area. It would have been 35 minutes directly East across the lake on an IFR clearance. I muttered about her ancestory the whole way around.
 
skidoo said:
Last week, I filed on the ground, and made comments that I would start out VFR and pick up the clearance (about an hour later) when I reached another field on my route. When I got there, they couldn't find my flight plan, but got the clearance anyway. It was in a different sector from where I departed. I wonder if that is why, or if it was almost an hour after my filed departure.

So, I am wondering if in the same situation, if I could file the departure airport as the one where I want to pick up my clearance in the air rather than my actual departure airport.
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Understand the system. The original controller will not activate your ifr flight plan since in reality you would be ifr at that time. He simply files it in the circular file. File your ifr flight plan from the point at which you want to activate ifr.
 
I generally would only consider a pop-up clearance as an unplanned event (i.e. Getting caught off guard by weather and needing a clearance to head into IFR conditions). If taking off from an uncontrolled airport in the boonies with no ability to use the radios on the ground, but decent VFR conditions, I'll just file and pick up the clearance in the air. That way at least everything is already in the system and, if they bother to read the notes, should know I'm going to show up asking for my clearance.

I generally avoid the whole "phone clearance" game unless I need it to get up in the air as it's usually more trouble than it's worth.
 
I usually file with a computer and occasionally with FF on my iPhone. I've had to pick up the phone to FSS a couple of times when I'm at FBOs who don't have a computer I can get into file with (though I still tend to use my phone). I think twice I've used FSS to file an IFR plan airborne. More often than not if I'm airborne and I want a clearance it's available from ATC.
 
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