IFR out of airports with no IAP

Palmpilot said:
Thanks. That has to be the strictest set of group rules I have ever seen!

I'm well aware of the need to verify offered information, especially on Facebook.
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Public groups, even good ones, tend to be spam and scam magnets. Private ones aren’t immune but tend to do better.
 
k9medic said:
In Florida from about 2006-2011, I worked for a part 135 operator that allowed this. We would come up with JAX approach in G airspace and would basically see where we were on the GPS and would identify the towers that way. VFR minimums (no A021) back then were 300 and 1/2 if I recall.

The Agusta 109E would climb about 2000 fpm with no issues so we were normally well above the MVA in less than 60 seconds.
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Fixed wing or helicopter for that?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Fixed wing or helicopter for that?
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midlifeflyer said:
I'm looking for pilots who file IFR out of airports with no instrument approaches.

It's for a possible article on the subject for IFR Magazine and I'm looking for real-world examples. Feel free to message me privately. If you answer here, I'll probably end up contacting you for details
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Edit: I'd better be more specific.

In marginal VFR or IMC, how do you maintain terrain and obstacle clearance on departure?
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I've had ATC try to kill me at least four times in my 6,000 hours by vectoring me into terrain or towers... I don't like that!

Paul
 
PaulMillner said:
I've had ATC try to kill me at least four times in my 6,000 hours by vectoring me into terrain or towers... I don't like that!

Paul
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Example? I remember you talking about an incident out of KHND once. What’s another one? One out of an airport without published DP’s, the subject of this thread.
 
PaulMillner said:
I've had ATC try to kill me at least four times in my 6,000 hours by vectoring me into terrain or towers... I don't like that!

Paul
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Echoing @luvflyin. What was the situation? Remember that a direction “upon entering controlled airspace,” is not a vector. The pilot retains terrain and obstruction responsibility until “radar contact”.
 
luvflyin said:
We want’ royalties:rofl:
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You'd be in a long line waiting. The example flight for the article is my first IFR solo flight. Fortunately(?) it still has no approaches so I was able to get some current information. The airport is not even on the LIFR enroute chart (no approaches and <3000' runway).
 
midlifeflyer said:
You'd be in a long line waiting. The example flight for the article is my first IFR solo flight. Fortunately(?) it still has no approaches so I was able to get some current information. The airport is not even on the LIFR enroute chart (no approaches and <3000' runway).
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I subscribe to IFR... is this going to hit anytime soon?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Probably not until summer. I have one in the February issue and another in the queue for April, so this one might be a while.
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You were asking questions a year or so about an airport in I think it was Minnesota. You said it was about an article you were going to write. Did that get done?
 
luvflyin said:
You were asking questions a year or so about an airport in I think it was Minnesota. You said it was about an article you were going to write. Did that get done?
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Dunno.I usually ask these kinds of questions because I want to use it as an example. Sometimes I use them, sometimes not.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Probably not until summer. I have one in the February issue and another in the queue for April, so this one might be a while.
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Thanks and appreciate your contributions... it is a great little rag "awl yawl" push out each month.
 
I have been under the assumption that you cannot enter I F R conditions with out a clearance to do so , i have left many airports over the years with no instrument procedure and I have always had to file to a intersection or fix and my flight plan started there if I could not get to that start point VFR it was a no go , if the airport you are leaving has radar coverage at let’s say 2000 feet AGL and it’s VFR to 2000 feet you might get them to pick you up but I never could , another thought is who would take off into the clouds with out a clearance or departure procedure not me , what if there is another airport close by or a private strip and someone there does the same thing and I don’t leave a aircraft IFR that does not have a approach to get back in
 
tbroadhurst said:
I have been under the assumption that you cannot enter I F R conditions with out a clearance to do so
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There you would be wrong. You have to have a clearance to be in conditions less than VFR within controlled airspace. In uncontrolled airspace a clearance is not only not necessary, it's unavailable.

If you read through this thread (see my earlier post). It is quite legal to depart in instrument conditions in to uncontrolled airspace. A clearance is not required nor does the airport need an approach. It is on you to verify you have terrain clearance.

Of course, there's precious little uncontrolled airspace out there, and practically none is available for en route use. So you'd best have a plan for what you intend to do. If it's not VMC where you could pick up a clearance in the air, you'd best have an IFR clearance for the overhanging controlled airspace before you depart. The FAA has strung up at least one pilot for trying to scud run out of a field in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance and called it reckless.

I would call ZTL on the ground and get a clearance of CLEARED DIRECT CJR UPON ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE FLY HEADING 230 THEN AS FILED...

I have no approach into my grass strip but I don't need no stinking departure procedure. I'll not hit anything on a straight out departure.

Coming in, if I can't get down from the MVA in visual conditions, then I'll fly the approach into one of the adjacent airports. For my own planning purposes, I compute TWO alternates. If I was going into let's say SVH or 14A, I'd have to pick a pretty far away alternate (HKY or RUQ). While I probably could legally file SVH or 14A as my legal alternate into NC26, I'd still like the option of getting to HKY, RUQ, or CLT with the fuel on board.
 
We all have our thought# on this I guess , i would never do that , if your in a area where no one is close for 50 miles maybe but if someone else does the same thing it could get interesting not sure where you live , maybe there’s lots of room there for this but flying into the clouds with out a clearance is not for me I think uncontrolled airspace would be the worst place to fly with no clearance or radar there might be other people doing the same thing I have come close in controlled airspace and radar coverage years ago I knew guys that would file to a intersection and Say they were VFR and were not not for me
 
tbroadhurst said:
I have been under the assumption that you cannot enter I F R conditions with out a clearance to do so , i have left many airports over the years with no instrument procedure and I have always had to file to a intersection or fix and my flight plan started there if I could not get to that start point VFR it was a no go , if the airport you are leaving has radar coverage at let’s say 2000 feet AGL and it’s VFR to 2000 feet you might get them to pick you up but I never could , another thought is who would take off into the clouds with out a clearance or departure procedure not me , what if there is another airport close by or a private strip and someone there does the same thing and I don’t leave a aircraft IFR that does not have a approach to get back in
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Practically speaking, you are correct that you need a clearance, for exactly the reason you mentioned - other traffic. But that still does not mean you need to file from an intersection. You can file from the ground.It’s done every day. It was SOP where I got my instrument training (no IAPs) and it still takes place today. Your decision to not depart unless it’s VFR is a personal minimum, not a requirement.

When you pick up your clearance at a nontowered airport where Class E begins at 700 AGL, you are obtaining your clearance and departing IFR in uncontrolled airspace. When you return to the airport by flying ILS or LPV to 200 AGL, those last 700’ are in uncontrolled airspace.

Aside from the lack of an instrument approach, this is no different.
 
tbroadhurst said:
We all have our thought# on this I guess , i would never do that , if your in a area where no one is close for 50 miles maybe but if someone else does the same thing it could get interesting not sure where you live , maybe there’s lots of room there for this but flying into the clouds with out a clearance is not for me I think uncontrolled airspace would be the worst place to fly with no clearance or radar there might be other people doing the same thing I have come close in controlled airspace and radar coverage years ago I knew guys that would file to a intersection and Say they were VFR and were not not for me
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BTW, the airport where I did this is just under a Class C shelf. And (I hope) no one is suggesting doing it without a clearance.
 
Your right you can do that I fly out of KHMT most of the winter months , non towered a lot of overcast days but VFR so you get people in the pattern and you have a void time it gets interesting but you can call ATC from the run up area so that works Southern California is a busy area lots of training flights , no radar till about 1500 agl at Khmt , anyway I do enjoy these posts Tom
 
midlifeflyer said:
Practically speaking, you are correct that you need a clearance, for exactly the reason you mentioned - other traffic. But that still does not mean you need to file from an intersection. You can file from the ground.It’s done every day. It was SOP where I got my instrument training (no IAPs) and it still takes place today. Your decision to not depart unless it’s VFR is a personal minimum, not a requirement.

When you pick up your clearance at a nontowered airport where Class E begins at 700 AGL, you are obtaining your clearance and departing IFR in uncontrolled airspace. When you return to the airport by flying ILS or LPV to 200 AGL, those last 700’ are in uncontrolled airspace.

Aside from the lack of an instrument approach, this is no different.
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There is no clearance in uncontrolled airspace and no traffic separation is provided.

For practical matters, since you won't remain in uncontrolled airspace long and you will have a clearance for controlled airspace above, that SHOULD discourage any other uncontrolled IFR traffic.
 
midlifeflyer said:
When you return to the airport by flying ILS or LPV to 200 AGL, those last 700’ are in uncontrolled airspace.
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I never really thought of it that way. Mind blown. I fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace anytime I have to do a loggable approach into home.
 
flyingron said:
There is no clearance in uncontrolled airspace and no traffic separation is provided.

For practical matters, since you won't remain in uncontrolled airspace long and you will have a clearance for controlled airspace above, that SHOULD discourage any other uncontrolled IFR traffic.
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Of course the clearance you receive doesn't apply until "upon entering controlled airspace." That doesn't mean you don't/can't receive it on the ground, which is what @tbroadhurst seemed to be saying.

For practical matters, except for departure and arrival, there is no uncontrolled IFR in the Lower 48.
 
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NealRomeoGolf said:
I never really thought of it that way. Mind blown. I fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace anytime I have to do a loggable approach into home.
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There's a Part 135 rule that prohibits IFR in uncontrolled airspace.
135.215 (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR outside of controlled airspace or at any airport that does not have an approved standard instrument approach procedure.​
The exceptions all involve FAA approval - OpSepcs and the like. But they illustrate the point:
(c) A person may operate an aircraft under IFR outside of controlled airspace if the certificate holder has been approved for the operations and that operation is necessary to -​
(1) Conduct an instrument approach to an airport for which there is in use a current approved standard or special instrument approach procedure; or​
(2) Climb into controlled airspace during an approved missed approach procedure; or​
(3) Make an IFR departure from an airport having an approved instrument approach procedure.​
 
flyingron said:
There is no clearance in uncontrolled airspace and no traffic separation is provided.
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They separate you from participating traffic - well they block the airspace, so not exactly the same as separation. But if it's G for the first 700', OVC007 and someone's flying around VFR at 600' perfectly legal, then you are on your own.

It's an old thread, but I think I read something that reflects what I do. Most of the time I get clearance & release on the ground if I'm anticipating needing to fly IFR. For obstacle clearance, I use whatever is available to me. Once I flew out of 1T8 (I think it's 1TT8 now), and I self-surveyed the area by using Google Earth to identify potential high spots and drove around to double check. Even doing that, my mins are the obstacle has to be clear of clouds - so if it was socked in, I wouldn't launch.
 
Someone could be flying around IFR at 600 perfectly legal. There's no separation in uncontrolled airspace, just in the overlying controlled airspace which admittedly is probably a pretty sure bet.
 
flyingron said:
Someone could be flying around IFR at 600 perfectly legal.
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I assume you mean with no clearance for the overlying Class E, D, C, or B. Where are they "flying around"?

I'm sticking with, there is no practical uncontrolled enroute IFR in the lower 48.
 
flyingron said:
Someone could be flying around IFR at 600 perfectly legal. There's no separation in uncontrolled airspace, just in the overlying controlled airspace which admittedly is probably a pretty sure bet.
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Ya still gotta comply with 91.177 (a) (2) and 91.179 (b). So you could do 1000 eastbound.
 
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