IFR NORDO... When is a course reversal required

[RussT]

You've lost comms. Take a look at this approach plate into KLGB (Long Beach) as an example.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1309/00236IL30.PDF

You are approaching BECCA which was your clearance limit, and you are in IMC for the purposes of this example and you intend to land at KLGB. There is a hold for a course reversal at BECCA.

Is there a rule for the range of directions (presumably any direction if you are too high) approaching BECCA where you must use the hold as a course reversal?

In other words when a turn is too big that it warrants a course reversal approaching a fix with one? Any relevant reference to the AIM would be awesome.

Thanks!!

 

[Sac Arrow]

I would treat it as any other hold and enter accordingly. You will be pointed in the right direction once established.

 

[Clip4]

The hold in lieu of PT is a required manuver unless certain conditions exist. You should be able to locate the information you want in the AIM 5-4-9.


http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/aim0504.html

You've lost comms. Take a look at this approach plate into KLGB (Long Beach) as an example.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1309/00236IL30.PDF

You are approaching BECCA which was your clearance limit, and you are in IMC for the purposes of this example and you intend to land at KLGB. There is a hold for a course reversal at BECCA.

Is there a rule for the range of directions (presumably any direction if you are too high) approaching BECCA where you must use the hold as a course reversal?

In other words when a turn is too big that it warrants a course reversal approaching a fix with one? Any relevant reference to the AIM would be awesome.

Thanks!!

 

[RussT]

The hold in lieu of PT is a required manuver in a lost comm situation unless the chart is noted NOPT applicable to your route. You should be able to locate the information you want in the AIM.

Ok so are you saying, for example, you were cleared to MIDDS, and even though you are approaching BECCA on the approach course at the intercept altitude, you must still do the hold?

 

[Clip4]

Ok so are you saying, for example, you were cleared to MIDDS, and even though you are approaching BECCA on the approach course at the intercept altitude, you must still do the hold?

Do you have an expect further clearance time? If not, complete the approach.

Edit: under lost comm prior to MIDDS, You could be required to hold at MIDDS and BECCA. MIDDS until your EFC expired and BECCA until your ETE, converted to ETA, expires.

 

[RussT]

Do you have an expect further clearance time? If not, complete the approach.

I didn't ask my question clearly. When must a procedure turn (or hold in lieu of a procedure turn) be used with respect to your bearing to the fix relative to the approach course?

You would not execute one when you are already approaching the final fix from your enroute already on the approach course.

Would you do a procedure turn if you were approaching the fix from the enroute if you were just 10 degrees off the approach course? How about 20? 30? etc

 

[Clip4]

I didn't ask my question clearly. When must a procedure turn (or hold in lieu of a procedure turn) be used with respect to your bearing to the fix relative to the approach course?

You would not execute one when you are already approaching the final fix from your enroute already on the approach course.

Would you do a procedure turn if you were approaching the fix from the enroute if you were just 10 degrees off the approach course? How about 20? 30? etc

Your bearing is not the issue at all. The procedure turn is a required manuver where depicted on the chart unless NOPT, straight in approved by atc, or you are being vectorer or time approaches are in use.. See the AIM. Over MIDDS, the feeder route says NOPT.

 

[denverpilot]

You seem hung up on the "course reversal".

Remember the rules are written so airspace can be cleared. If you're cleared to BECCA and then go NORDO then you go to BECCA and enter the hold until your EFC. Someone on the ground figures out that's where you went as directed and has until the EFC to clear folks out of wherever they think you'll go next.

They don't care / already know what heading you flew to arrive at BECCA. They want you "parked" at BECCA until the EFC time, so they have time to clear traffic out your next chunk of airspace.

 

[BillTIZ]

If I'm coming in from Seal Beach on the transition to Becca, I'm going outbound to set up for the approach. That turn is too tight that close to stay on the localized and get down. An overshoot is inevitable.

If my EFC was running out before or when I get to Becca, I would want to be down at FAF altitude and less than a 30 degree turn to final. If I'm too high, I'm going outbound. A true nordo would mean no transponder either, they can watch me turn outbound on skin paint, raw radar return, they'll figure it out.

The hold pattern is depicted in bold, doesn't that mean you have to execute at least one turn before starting down the localizer. Unless you are on the transition from Midds

 

[Clip4]

If I'm coming in from Seal Beach on the transition to Becca, I'm going outbound to set up for the approach. That turn is too tight that close to stay on the localized and get down. An overshoot is inevitable.

If my EFC was running out before or when I get to Becca, I would want to be down at FAF altitude and less than a 30 degree turn to final. If I'm too high, I'm going outbound. A true nordo would mean no transponder either, they can watch me turn outbound on skin paint, raw radar return, they'll figure it out.

The hold pattern is depicted in bold, doesn't that mean you have to execute at least one turn before starting down the localizer. Unless you are on the transition from Midds

You set the question with 3 ssues. Lost comm, hold and procedure turn.

The reg requires a hold at IAF if your ETE, converted to ETA, has not expired.

The reg requires a procedure turn when on is depicted on the chart and 1 of the 4 exceptions is not applicable.

So if you enter from SEAL BEACH, you should hold until ETE is expired then proceed. If the ETE has expired, you should use the hold in lieu of a prodedure turn to reverse course.

 

[comanchepilot]

From the title - you are NORDO.

You CL is BECCA.

You WILL have an EFC time - right?

So you hold as published until the EFC time and then fly the approach - hoping you will be able to see a light from the tower when you break out. Because I'm assuming you are in IMC.

As for direction of flight to BECCA . . . ummmm - there are rules for the type of entry into the hold - but I can't imagine you are asking that.

First off - ATC has rules - since BECCA is a FAF you need to be established on course 2 miles or so prior to the fix - thus - even in SoCal with our slam dunks and crazy vectors - you should not be anywhere near BECCA outside 20-30 degrees either side of the LOC 2 miles from BECCA.

Second - I've never heard of getting a clearance limit to a FAF - at least not in SoCal.

If you are in a position where you are outside the 30 degree cone, inside 2 miles to the fix, then you are doing a turn in the hold to get established - ATC is going to SEE that happening and will likely assume that will take a turn in the hold to get established on course. They have radar - you just don't don't have aradio - they can see what you are doing.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ok so are you saying, for example, you were cleared to MIDDS, and even though you are approaching BECCA on the approach course at the intercept altitude, you must still do the hold?

You see the "NoPT" on the MIDDS-BECCA transition? It means what it says.

As for 91.185(c), if you arrive at MIDDS (an IAF, i.e., a fix from which the approach begins) too high to get down to 1600 at BECCA, then you enter a standard hold at MIDDS, on your arrival course, and descend to an altitude from which you can make 1600 by BECCA, then depart MIDDS and fly the approach as published from MIDDS, i.e., with no course reversal at BECCA.

OTOH, if you are proceeding to BECCA not via MIDDS, then upon arrival at BECCA, you enter the hold at your last assigned/expected/MEA altitude, and if you can't make it down to 1600 in one turn, you continue the descent in holding until you can cross BECCA at 1600 and then fly the rest of the approach as published.

 

[poadeleted20]

I didn't ask my question clearly. When must a procedure turn (or hold in lieu of a procedure turn) be used with respect to your bearing to the fix relative to the approach course?


You would not execute one when you are already approaching the final fix from your enroute already on the approach course.

That is not true. "approaching the final fix from your enroute already on the approach course" is not one of the four conditions under which you are authorized to skip the mandatory holding pattern in lieu of procedure turn:

1. Receiving vectors to final
2. On a NoPT route
3. Already in the hold at the depicted altitude
4. Cleared "straight in" by ATC

In the lost comm case, even if it looks like you might have received a "straight in" clearance from ATC if you were still able to hear them, the fourth condition is moot, and you may skip the HPILPT only if you meet conditions 2 or 3 (VTF also being moot).

Would you do a procedure turn if you were approaching the fix from the enroute if you were just 10 degrees off the approach course? How about 20? 30? etc

Absent the four conditions listed above, there is nothing in any directive to pilots saying you can skip a HPILPT based on being within any number of degrees of the final approach course, or even being exactly on it.

 

[poadeleted20]

The hold pattern is depicted in bold, doesn't that mean you have to execute at least one turn before starting down the localizer. Unless you are on the transition from Midds

It does indeed, other than the four conditions listed, one of which is entering the approach at MIDDS with the subsequent NoPT route.

 

[comanchepilot]

It does indeed, other than the four conditions listed, one of which is entering the approach at MIDDS with the subsequent NoPT route.

The exception to that rule, of course, is the guy is NORDO, its IFR conditions - and departing the holding fix needs to happen at or after the EFC time.

Unless SoCal gave you an EFC time 4 hours from now. . . .then - not sure what I'd do?

 

[coma24]

My guess is that the OP didn't mean to say that BECCA was the clearance limit, rather, it was the last fix in the cleared route?

I can't think of many cases where ATC could set a clearance limit of the FAF short of the airport closing briefly and them having to hold airplanes.

 

[poadeleted20]

The exception to that rule, of course, is the guy is NORDO, its IFR conditions - and departing the holding fix needs to happen at or after the EFC time.

That only changes when you leave the fix/start the descent, not how you fly the approach once you leave the fix.

 

[roncachamp]

You've lost comms. Take a look at this approach plate into KLGB (Long Beach) as an example.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1309/00236IL30.PDF

You are approaching BECCA which was your clearance limit, and you are in IMC for the purposes of this example and you intend to land at KLGB. There is a hold for a course reversal at BECCA.

Is there a rule for the range of directions (presumably any direction if you are too high) approaching BECCA where you must use the hold as a course reversal?

In other words when a turn is too big that it warrants a course reversal approaching a fix with one? Any relevant reference to the AIM would be awesome.

Thanks!!

Why was BECCA your clearance limit?