IFR Noob buying his first plane.

[mike444]

Alright my experienced counterparts, like the title says I have found the plane that I want, but I really have very no knowledge about what I need and what I should stay away from. I have called various avionics shops and have read through many threads but since I have no experience with even training for an IR I could definitely use a little help.

Plane I'm looking at is an archer that looks very clean and engine has low tbo. As for the avionics it is using a kln 90b connected to a Kmd 250 with a garmin gtx 327. How capable are these units? But more importantly can I do my IR with this setup?

My finding have found that its a yes and no. And this is where my lack of experience is becoming my achilles heel. The kln 90B from what I read is IFR capable upon installing a annunciator(what?) and a 337 from the shop(not entirely sure what this is), that labor can come out to about $3-4k if I understood correctly. And then I called a school and to get the IR I have to shoot 3 different type of approaches.

- So my question really is can I use this set up for my Instrument training and check ride if not how can I?

- Do I stay clear from these avionics?

- Alternatives? Am I asking the right questions?

Pics won't upload will try it on a different computer.

 

[mike444]

more pictures

 

[airheadpenguin]

As the kid that did his IFR in a single radio PA-28-151 you can do your IFR in almost anything. As it is the KLN-90b is a decent but extremely dated GPS, it'll support terminal mode as well as enroute navigation so you get to file /G

Its good to get to practice using the avoinics you're going to fly with. Nothing wrong with this setup though do learn to fly approaches with a single radio "just incase"

 

[Steven8385]

Shoot a localizer, vor and an ils. Three approaches with no need for gps.

 

[airheadpenguin]

We had to use an ILS approach as a LOC for my ride to get the 2nd non-precision approach. Darn!

 

[rpadula]

This is an Annunciator:

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/avionics/mid-continent-instruments-avionics/mdct-md41-3.html

It indicates what your GPS is doing during approaches and the buttons are pushed at various times as well. It needs to be installed somewhere in front of your immediate field of vision.

Is the GPS in that plane already connected to one of the course indicators? If not, then there's more money to spend.

At the end, a test flight must be done to verify correct GPS operation before it can be used for IFR purposes.

 

[mike444]

Is the GPS in that plane already connected to one of the course indicators? If not, then there's more money to spend.

At the end, a test flight must be done to verify correct GPS operation before it can be used for IFR purposes.

I do not know if it is connected, in any case the annunciator is only if I want to have the capability to do GPS approaches correct?

 

[mike444]

As the kid that did his IFR in a single radio PA-28-151 you can do your IFR in almost anything. As it is the KLN-90b is a decent but extremely dated GPS, it'll support terminal mode as well as enroute navigation so you get to file /G

Its good to get to practice using the avionics you're going to fly with. Nothing wrong with this setup though do learn to fly approaches with a single radio "just incase"

From what I read the KLN-90B is not very intuitive giving some pilots trouble when trying to do approaches, do you agree? Also even without the Annunciator I can file /G?

Since you mentioned radios, I talked to an avionics shop and they told me the #2 radio at the bottom is ancient and will fail on me soon. He said the 90B might be on its last hours as well.

Shoot a localizer, vor and an ils. Three approaches with no need for gps.

Thanks Steve the closest vor is about an hour away so it might be more feasible to just rent a plane for that section of training with an instructor. Do you have experience with the kln-90B and/or the KMD 250?

 

[Caramon13]

FWIW, I bought a plane for my IFR training as well. It had a king com system in it and an SL30 Nav/Com. No GPS, only one VOR with GS/LOC.

I added a GTN 650 and another VOR with a GS/LOC (redundancy to shoot ILS approaches if the #1 fails). Didn't want to be stuck with loc/vor only.

I believe the /G requirement is RNAV capability with GNSS and without RVSM. That probably also means you need an updated navigation/obstacle database in the KLN-90B. Without that you can probably use it for enroute and terminal awareness, but not for approaches.

Non-WAAS gps' are also completely useless when RAIM fails or is otherwise unavailable and you DO need to run a check before going anywhere to ensure it is "predicted" to be available. Whereas with a WAAS GPS, you don't actually have to rely on RAIM (you do need to rely on the WAAS though).

A GTN-650 is a massive investment, but it was well worth it as it gave me a backup VOR/GS/LOC, WAAS GPS capability and later on, I can add traffic, weather, etc with a single upgrade and a flightstream and have it all show on my iPad.

 

[OkieAviator]

A GTN-650 is a massive investment, but it was well worth it as it gave me a backup VOR/GS/LOC, WAAS GPS capability and later on, I can add traffic, weather, etc with a single upgrade and a flightstream and have it all show on my iPad.

+1 on this. I did the same thing, installed a GTN-650, KX155 and a couple CDI's with glideslope. When it comes to single pilot IFR with no autopilot the GTN-650 and pushing buttons is nice.

 

[Steven8385]

I don't have an experience with those to radios, I did my training with the gtn 650 In a club airplane. Now I use a gns 430. The gtn is so much easier as far as programming/adding airways. To load an approach it's pretty much the same though. I don't see the price point of the gtn 650 being worth it at 16000 thousand when the gns are so much cheaper.

 

[Caramon13]

GTN650 isn't 16K anymore, the shop I had the work done at charged me almost half that for the equipment, the labor added some in for it, but you can get a GTN 650 installed for around 11K probably. Plus, it's WAAS, whereas the gns 430 is not, unless you spend another 4-5K upgrading it.

I very nearly went the gns route, but I'm glad I didn't. The GTN has a ton of useful features that aren't in the GNS and it doesn't require reading through manuals from the manufacturer and third parties to understand how to use all of those features.

The Cessna I flew around in before my Cherokee had a GNS 530 (non WAAS), and it was very nice, but honestly if I had to use it for anything other than a Direct To, I'd be lost.

 

[BigBadLou]

Mike, make sure you filter the posts well since you are bound to see many replies suggesting to install avionics that far exceed the value of the actual aircraft.

With the GPS not certified for IFR, you are limited to flying Victor airways and shooting ILS/LOC/VOR approaches. That is not a bad thing but more and more airports nowadays have RNAV approaches only which is what the KLN is for. You can get it IFR certified for less than the quoted $3-4k. Talk to multiple shops in the area. Do not be afraid to expand your search to neighboring airports, often you can find a good mechanic if you are willing to fly a few minutes.

I have a similar setup like yours (NAV capability and an old KLN) and it is perfectly sufficient for any flying I need.

 

[Marauder]

Mike -- the equipment in the plane you are looking at has some limits. Caramon13 is correct that the 90B is RNAV capable for enroute and non precision approaches. I don't know the status of obtaining the nav database updates for this unit. I would verify that they are still available through Jepp or whomever supplies them. You won't be able to fly the GPS precision approaches like an LPV.

My plane was VOR/ILS/NDB only capable until 2012. Over the years I started having problems flying to some of my favorite destinations because the VOR approaches were being converted to GPS approaches and the NDB (not that I liked flying them) were going away. Since I have no intention of selling my plane, I opted for upgrading the avionics.

As BigBadLou points out, make sure the plane is either equipped the way you want or you are willing to make the commitment to keep the plane. You will not get your money back out from the investment and should be mentally prepared for that if you need or want to sell. Having that equipment installed will make it easier to sell though.

Hope this helps.


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[bradg33]

The KLN90b is functional as a "legal" IFR GPS, but it's really a piece of junk by today's standards. The moving map is utterly useless, and the unit can no longer hold the entire US database; you'll have to pick regions IIRC. Database updates are no picnic, either. There's not front-removable card for the unit, and updating it with a direct-connected laptop is an exercise in patience. You'll also need to find someone who knows how to use it to help you learn it, as it's one of the least intuitive GPS units I've ever come across.

Do you have any indication that the KLN90b was installed VFR-only? That would be somewhat unusual, though not unheard of. Most (smart) people don't buy IFR GPS units and install them VFR-only to save a few bucks. I'd be surprised if it wasn't already an IFR install.

In any event, it's not a WAAS-capable unit, so it can't act as the position source for ADS-B come 2020.

 

[unsafervguy]

Since you mentioned radios, I talked to an avionics shop and they told me the #2 radio at the bottom is ancient and will fail on me soon. He said the 90B might be on its last hours as well.

avionics shops are in business to sell avionics. do they have a crystal ball to tell when electronics will fail, if so i want to buy one of those. it is old, it may fail today or in 10 years who knows.

the GPS, If IFR will give you GPS non-precision approach ability. it may be more difficult to learn, hard to update, and not modern but it is legal and useful.

does it have what you want and does the price reflect that.

the question is what do you want and are you willing to spend what it takes to get it. example, JA air center has a 76 c172 for sale at well over 100k, it has over 160k in the panel. they will never get that 160k out of it, for them, because they are an avionics shop it must have made sense to put it together for advertising. for me it would have been money thrown away.

IF you want the best in avionics, you are going to have to be ready to loose that investment when you sell it. if you are looking at it as a long term aircraft it may be worth spending the money for your enjoyment and piece of mind. I recently went full glass in my RV, did I need it? no, i don't fly it IFR. Will I get that investment back if I sell it? i doubt it. But I plan on keeping it, and I wanted it so its there.

the first rule in buying an aircraft is know your mission and your budget and live within both.

bob

 

[mike444]

Mike, make sure you filter the posts well since you are bound to see many replies suggesting to install avionics that far exceed the value of the actual aircraft.

I have a similar setup like yours (NAV capability and an old KLN) and it is perfectly sufficient for any flying I need.

I definitely had too, those prices can give people nightmares

I'm going to call around a few shops, im hoping I can do it under $2k to be honest, I don't know how realistic that goal is but as time comes I'll find out.

 

[mike444]

The KLN90b is functional as a "legal" IFR GPS, but it's really a piece of junk by today's standards. The moving map is utterly useless, and the unit can no longer hold the entire US database; you'll have to pick regions IIRC. Database updates are no picnic, either. There's not front-removable card for the unit, and updating it with a direct-connected laptop is an exercise in patience.

Do you have any indication that the KLN90b was installed VFR-only? That would be somewhat unusual, though not unheard of. Most (smart) people don't buy IFR GPS units and install them VFR-only to save a few bucks. I'd be surprised if it wasn't already an IFR install.

I understand it can never meet 2020 compliance, the 90B is talking to the kmd 250, so that is where it is projecting its map. As for updating the owner said he will include the data link cable to just remind him.. Does that make the process easier? And as for IFR vs. VFR installed what do you mean exactly?

Mike -- the equipment in the plane you are looking at has some limits. Caramon13 is correct that the 90B is RNAV capable for enroute and non precision approaches. I don't know the status of obtaining the nav database updates for this unit. I would verify that they are still available through Jepp or whomever supplies them.


As BigBadLou points out, make sure the plane is either equipped the way you want or you are willing to make the commitment to keep the plane. You will not get your money back out from the investment and should be mentally prepared for that if you need or want to sell. Having that equipment installed will make it easier to sell though.

Hope this helps.

As it sits I'm going to end up paying 44k for it you guys got a quick look at the avionics, without going into to much detail paint is a few years old, interior a year old. Very clean and engine and prop have less than 550 SMOH overhaul was done in 2008. Fresh annual (as most do "") and Ifr was done in may.

To answer you I would say no the plane is not equipped the way I want it but like anyone its a balance of price/equipment/quality of aircraft. My searches of Pa-28-180's so far have came up with some equipped with a 430(some w) but over TBO and often junky. Then I have found some nice but out of range or project planes. My budget is $45.

Just going by that would you say the price is fair?

Thanks

 

[denverpilot]

Just going to throw this out here...

$45,000 will get you over 200 hours in an older Cirrus.

Way more hours in anything else less expensive, probably including stuff with glass and autopilots.

Make sure you really want to be an owner. Just sayin'.

Personally I want to be a co-owner so I am. But I don't kid myself that there aren't better equipped aircraft out there available pretty darn cheap, as rentals.

Especially vs buying modern avionics.

 

[papogator24]

Mike, where are you based in South Florida?

 

[Marauder]

I understand it can never meet 2020 compliance, the 90B is talking to the kmd 250, so that is where it is projecting its map. As for updating the owner said he will include the data link cable to just remind him.. Does that make the process easier? And as for IFR vs. VFR installed what do you mean exactly?







As it sits I'm going to end up paying 44k for it you guys got a quick look at the avionics, without going into to much detail paint is a few years old, interior a year old. Very clean and engine and prop have less than 550 SMOH overhaul was done in 2008. Fresh annual (as most do "") and Ifr was done in may.



To answer you I would say no the plane is not equipped the way I want it but like anyone its a balance of price/equipment/quality of aircraft. My searches of Pa-28-180's so far have came up with some equipped with a 430(some w) but over TBO and often junky. Then I have found some nice but out of range or project planes. My budget is $45.



Just going by that would you say the price is fair?



Thanks

To answer your IFR vs. VFR question. Some of these units were installed and did not complete the IFR requirements and were limited to VFR operations. Usually there is something on the panel that will say "GPS limited to VFR Operations" or something similar. Brad's point was to make sure it was not a VFR installation because then you could not use it to file /G.

As for the value, I don't know the Piper market prices but to make this plane ADS-B compliant you will need to invest at a minimum an "out" device (ex. Garmin 330ES or King KT-74) and a WAAS GPS or buy something like a Garmin GDL-88 or similar device capable of providing the WAAS position.

The cheapest of these options will still run you $4-5k with installation. If that know expense plus the price equal FMV for the Piper market, it would make sense to go forward with the deal.

On a side note, you can do nothing with avionics and fly it the way it is until 2020...


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[James331]

If you're going to buy, just find a plane that already has at lest 90% of the panel you want, upgrading avionics is for suckers and often will cost a fortune.

At the least I'd want a Garmin 430W, second nav com and a basic autopilot, newer audio panel and transponder. If you're shopping 172,182,PA28s they are a dime a dozen and you should have mug trouble finding what you're looking for, just give it time and look nationwide.

For the guy who couldn't figure out a GNS430, play with it on the ground with the manual, download the free sim, than play in the air VFR. I run GNS boxes in my plane and at work, I go direct to and many other functions without even looking at the screen, now the KLN, I'd just skip over that turd.

 

[mike444]

Mike, where are you based in South Florida?

Close to KTMB sir.

 

[papogator24]

Close to KTMB sir.

I wish I could fly out of KTMB but cannot since I'm deaf. I fly out of X51. I'm getting married in January and soon after I hope to be looking for a plane or atleast find a partner.

 

[Bill Watson]

If you're going to buy, just find a plane that already has at lest 90% of the panel you want, upgrading avionics is for suckers and often will cost a fortune.

At the least I'd want a Garmin 430W, second nav com and a basic autopilot, newer audio panel and transponder. If you're shopping 172,182,PA28s they are a dime a dozen and you should have mug trouble finding what you're looking for, just give it time and look nationwide.

For the guy who couldn't figure out a GNS430, play with it on the ground with the manual, download the free sim, than play in the air VFR. I run GNS boxes in my plane and at work, I go direct to and many other functions without even looking at the screen, now the KLN, I'd just skip over that turd.

I'd second everything above. Yes, Yes, Yes

Don't get fixated on what ever you've found. Shopping is hard work but you will find what you want at a fair price as long as you don't stop shopping. This one isn't it. The need for an annunciator to get the KLN up to training spec is a complete waste of $$$ time and effort.

I would think that a G430 is a sweet spot for your needs. WAAS would put the panel in a winners circle.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Its going to be MORE expensive to upgrade than to buy already there.

Non WAAS is ok. You can learn the GPS approaches without it and most pilots just fly the GPS enroute and shoot the ILS. If your homebase has only a GPS approach then you will want GPS. WASS is nice but expensive.

The easiest panel would be two VORs, one with a glideslope. An IFR KLN90B is fine. They work just fine for non WAAS. I have one. You can still get updates.

You do realize that you are going to need about $75 an hour to run that plane not including depreiation or acquisition costs. Still expensive if on a budget.

 

[petrolero]

A GTN-650 is a massive investment, but it was well worth it as it gave me a backup VOR/GS/LOC, WAAS GPS capability and later on, I can add traffic, weather, etc with a single upgrade and a flightstream and have it all show on my iPad.

This is what I did as well except it was a GTN 750 and I installed a GPS-steering converter since my A/P didn't come with GPSS (Cobham/STEC ST-901). The GTN 750 cost $14k plus about $5k for install (there was a LOT of crap to clean up behind my panel).

My plane came with a GX-60 "IFR" GPS (non-WAAS, garbage moving map, basically obsolete) and an MX-20 MFD. The interface on the GX-60 is of the "knobber" style with two concentric knobs that Garmin still uses to this day. Navigating and entering data SUCKS on these compared to the ease of a GTN touch screen. That doesn't mean you have to have a GTN tho... see below.

+1 on this. I did the same thing, installed a GTN-650, KX155 and a couple CDI's with glideslope. When it comes to single pilot IFR with no autopilot the GTN-650 and pushing buttons is nice.

GTN650 isn't 16K anymore, the shop I had the work done at charged me almost half that for the equipment, the labor added some in for it, but you can get a GTN 650 installed for around 11K probably. Plus, it's WAAS, whereas the gns 430 is not, unless you spend another 4-5K upgrading it.

I very nearly went the gns route, but I'm glad I didn't. The GTN has a ton of useful features that aren't in the GNS and it doesn't require reading through manuals from the manufacturer and third parties to understand how to use all of those features.

The Cessna I flew around in before my Cherokee had a GNS 530 (non WAAS), and it was very nice, but honestly if I had to use it for anything other than a Direct To, I'd be lost.

The GTN is superior in almost every way to any of the 'knobber' units on a head-to-head basis. Kind of a 'duh' statement I guess but,...

That said, the GNS now has the ability to accept input from Garmin Pilot ipad app, thereby creating a de facto touch interface for the GNS. I have read on this board that that is a *massive* improvement for data entry and (I think) approach selection, etc. Something to consider for the budget. A used GNS 430W is not nearly as hard on the budget and lets you fly LPV approaches, which to my thinking is the biggest benefit of IFR GPS. The are so many GPS approaches popping up that you can fly an ILS-like approach to some of the most Podunk airports.

The KLN90b is functional as a "legal" IFR GPS, but it's really a piece of junk by today's standards. The moving map is utterly useless, and the unit can no longer hold the entire US database; you'll have to pick regions IIRC. Database updates are no picnic, either. There's not front-removable card for the unit, and updating it with a direct-connected laptop is an exercise in patience. You'll also need to find someone who knows how to use it to help you learn it, as it's one of the least intuitive GPS units I've ever come across.

Do you have any indication that the KLN90b was installed VFR-only? That would be somewhat unusual, though not unheard of. Most (smart) people don't buy IFR GPS units and install them VFR-only to save a few bucks. I'd be surprised if it wasn't already an IFR install.

In any event, it's not a WAAS-capable unit, so it can't act as the position source for ADS-B come 2020.

Mike, make sure you filter the posts well since you are bound to see many replies suggesting to install avionics that far exceed the value of the actual aircraft.

With the GPS not certified for IFR, you are limited to flying Victor airways and shooting ILS/LOC/VOR approaches. That is not a bad thing but more and more airports nowadays have RNAV approaches only which is what the KLN is for. You can get it IFR certified for less than the quoted $3-4k. Talk to multiple shops in the area. Do not be afraid to expand your search to neighboring airports, often you can find a good mechanic if you are willing to fly a few minutes.

I have a similar setup like yours (NAV capability and an old KLN) and it is perfectly sufficient for any flying I need.

This is a good point. But remember that this is an investment that increases the value of the airplane. This is what we do with older airplanes, and it's how 90% of us are able to fly. Avionics depreciate and this KLN-90b is obsolete. Don't put any value on it in the purchase because it *will* need to be upgraded real soon to meet the stupid ADS-B mandate anyway (I know there are ways around it but IMHO not for an airplane that will fly real IMC).

I wouldn't want to train with it knowing that I will soon be replacing it. Buy the plane with no value on the avionics, and plan to upgrade to either a GNS-430W with Garmin Pilot or to a GTN-x50 ASAP. Getting the IR is one thing - you can do that with nearly any POS panel. Flying effectively in the crud and taking advantage of what we are all paying for in "the system" (read: LPV) is another matter.

 

[mike444]

Its going to be MORE expensive to upgrade than to buy already there.

The easiest panel would be two VORs, one with a glideslope. An IFR KLN90B is fine. They work just fine for non WAAS. I have one. You can still get updates.

You do realize that you are going to need about $75 an hour to run that plane not including depreciation or acquisition costs. Still expensive if on a budget.

$75 dry or wet? I came up with almost $72 wet @ $50/hr in fuel. I divided 1500 or so hours left on the engine by $21k comes to $14/hr for the overhaul + another $6/hr bucks for surprises(I have no calculations on how I go to this number just rounded to twenty bucks) + $1.75/hr for 50hr oil/filter/camguard changes = $21.75/hr + $50(is 10gph about right?) got me to about $72.

This is just my variable costs. I put my annual cost into my monthly fixed of course. And yup not including acquisition, as for depreciation not sure how to go about that. And I know with the the 2020 ADS-B compliance by then the avionics currently equipped will be totally and utterly worthless at least in the U.S.

If I'm missing something or should be changing some numbers up please share your wisdom, this is my first plane and I am open to advice by all means.

Yes the plane has 2 VORs one with a glidescope, as for your 90B have you had any problems I have read that when they go its cheaper to just buy another than to service it.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Get a bid from an avionics shop. Thats 75 wet not including depreciation (difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for or engine reserve (which some include in the deprciation)) So the total is going to be 100 an hour or so (NO ONE really knows). Doubtful youre going to beat that, but you dont feel it all until you sell it (or rebuild it). It will be 750 a month cash flow if you fly 10 hours a month. And hope nothing catastrophic happens like needing some 5000 dollar or more repair. Its really not for the faint of wallet. You get dinged when you sell (unless you rebuild it) except you get some money back so yippee! A lot of that depends on the price of fuel and how you run it. If you dial it back you can probably get it down to 6 gallons an hour but that is going maybe 90 knots.

 

[coloradobluesky]

IFR instruments cost money to repair also so an IFR plane is more expensive to keep up than a VFR one.

Hangar
Insurance
Annual

Fuel
Maintenance
Supplies

Depreciation (cost of buying minus selling proceeds) But this cost gets realized upon sale.

 

[James331]

I'd second everything above. Yes, Yes, Yes

Don't get fixated on what ever you've found. Shopping is hard work but you will find what you want at a fair price as long as you don't stop shopping. This one isn't it. The need for an annunciator to get the KLN up to training spec is a complete waste of $$$ time and effort.

I would think that a G430 is a sweet spot for your needs. WAAS would put the panel in a winners circle.

Yup.

Only thing I'd add, if you found a plane that was all there, just not WAAS, I would just factor the 2500-3k upgrade into the price, making a 430/530 WAAS ain't that big of a deal if everything else is good on the plane.