IFR in Uncontrolled Airspace

Marc CYBW

Marc CYBW

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
93
Location
Calgary
Display Name
Display name:
Marc CYBW
In a forum discussion on the differences between Canadian and US IFR rules, it was noted that U.S. ATC "... frowns upon..." IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

I have flown IFR in uncontrolled airspace in Montana (to and from Canada) with never a comment.

I am planning to go IFR to OshKosh this summer and, if I can get a direct routing, some of it will be in uncontrolled airspace.

Any comments on others' experiences would be welcome.
 
Can you link the (or a) specific discussion?
 
Just confirming- you mean Class G? IFR on a clearance?

If so, there's no separation from other aircraft, IFR or VFR. VFR can fly in class G in pretty lousy conditions. IIRC, no separation from obstacles either. You're on your own; ATC probably doesn't even see you on radar.

People that know much more than I will chime in about whether you could even pick up a clearance for class G IFR.
 
Normally most Class G airspace is low, well below typical IFR MEA's and MVA's. I'd be curious to know the specific route.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Just confirming- you mean Class G? IFR on a clearance?

If so, there's no separation from other aircraft, IFR or VFR. VFR can fly in class G in pretty lousy conditions. IIRC, no separation from obstacles either. You're on your own; ATC probably doesn't even see you on radar.

People that know much more than I will chime in about whether you could even pick up a clearance for class G IFR.
Click to expand...

That's the point, there is no clearance for Class G IFR, at least not that i am aware off. You will be instructed to enter controlled airspace at a certain point and altitude.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Normally most Class G airspace is low, well below typical IFR MEA's and MVA's. I'd be curious to know the specific route.
Click to expand...

Look out west, Class G can go to 14,500. But if there is an airway involved with lower MEA, then the Class G ceiling, Class E floor is set to include the airway. You could go "off airways" and be in Class G IFR.
 
Marc CYBW said:
In a forum discussion on the differences between Canadian and US IFR rules, it was noted that U.S. ATC "... frowns upon..." IFR in uncontrolled airspace.
Click to expand...

Since ATC is not responsible for IFR flights in uncontrolled airspace, I don't understand why they would care about it one way or the other. :dunno:
 
BillTIZ said:
Look out west, Class G can go to 14,500. But if there is an airway involved with lower MEA, then the Class G ceiling, Class E floor is set to include the airway. You could go "off airways" and be in Class G IFR.
Click to expand...

Yes, but there is very little of that. Which is why I am interested in the specific route.
 
The route from McMinnville to Calgary ran through Mullen Pass, then Kalispell and north through uncontrolled airspace until I was handed off to Edmonton Centre and eventually entered Canadian controlled airspace.
 
What is specifically frowned up on based on some enforcement actions that have no specific grounding in regulation other than "careless and reckless" is IFR flights in uncontrolled airspace when you don't have a clearance for the overlying controlled airspace. There's darned little (as stated earlier) uncontrolled airspace in the US and what exists underlies a 1200' or 700' floor of controlled airspace.
 
Hmmm. Help me out here. If I go direct from Great Falls MT to Jamestown ND, it seems I go through uncontrolled airspace.
 
Marc CYBW said:
Hmmm. Help me out here. If I go direct from Great Falls MT to Jamestown ND, it seems I go through uncontrolled airspace.
Click to expand...

Not exclusively. There's a good chunk of uncontrolled airspace there, but both airports are in 700' transition areas and a lot of the flight goes through 1200' floor areas surrounding some of the crossing airways and even GDV's 700' transition area. Since much of the flight takes place in an area designated as mountainous, you'd need to be at 2000 above the highest obstacle which would put you squarely into controlled airspace for parts of the flight.
 
If you're talking about the big brown areas out west, the FAA really doesn't care much -- you can't get a clearance through them so it's pretty much "at your own risk." The issue mentioned in post #10 is described in detail in this enforcement action.
 
I'm pretty sure Montana qualifies as "out west."
 
On my way to CYBW (Nice airport by the way, we enjoyed our visit) from KMSO via KCTB, we couldn't get radar or radio contact from about Augusta, MT until we got across the border and closed in on Lethbridge. You'll cross the border without talking to anyone or being on anyone's radar regardless of what the airspace is designated, that was at 10,500'.
 
ATC doesn't "frown on" instrument flight in uncontrolled airspace...they have no responsibility for flights in uncontrolled airspace and couldn't issue a clearance to enter Class G airspace anyway. It is pretty close to the ground (<700/<1200 agl in most locations).

Since you are in Canada, I wonder if we have a semantics problem...that is, does "uncontrolled airspace" mean the same thing to you as it does to your US counterparts? I suspect not.

Bob Gardner
 
Excellent point Bob.

So, I went back to the Canadian AIM and the Instrument Procedures Manual. As in the US, Canadian controlled airspace is "... airspace of defined dimensions within which ATC service is provided."

In addition to controlled airspace is "protected airspace" that exists in uncontrolled airspace where ATC will not send (or launch) another IFR flight for a defined period of time. ATC may, or may not be in communications with the aircraft, but not does not "control" the airspace. This seems to apply to a lot of the Canadian uncontrolled airspace for cruising (my example crossing from Montana to Alberta and also in trips north of Edmonton) and certainly does for approaches to airports in uncontrolled airspace as defined in detail in the manual.

Does this not apply in the US?

Thanks
Marc
 
Marc, essentially for the last question, "yes".

From the Mississippi River east, there is essentially no class G airspace. In the upper plains there are vast stretches of "G" below 14,500 and radar coverage is frequently nonexistent below 5,000 msl through mid N. Dakota to mid Kansas and west of that line.

You'll be on reporting points and victor airways if IFR out there.....and they will separate by reported positions and reported altitudes, as in "the old way" out there, if you insist on being IFR and below their radar coverage.
 
bbchien said:
From the Mississippi River east, there is essentially no class G airspace.
Click to expand...

There are areas of Class G airspace up to 14,500 MSL over the upper peninsula of Michigan, Lake Superior, and northern Lake Michigan.
 
Marc CYBW said:
Excellent point Bob.

So, I went back to the Canadian AIM and the Instrument Procedures Manual. As in the US, Canadian controlled airspace is "... airspace of defined dimensions within which ATC service is provided."

In addition to controlled airspace is "protected airspace" that exists in uncontrolled airspace where ATC will not send (or launch) another IFR flight for a defined period of time. ATC may, or may not be in communications with the aircraft, but not does not "control" the airspace. This seems to apply to a lot of the Canadian uncontrolled airspace for cruising (my example crossing from Montana to Alberta and also in trips north of Edmonton) and certainly does for approaches to airports in uncontrolled airspace as defined in detail in the manual.

Does this not apply in the US?

Thanks
Marc
Click to expand...

Lots of people, pilots and non-pilots, are under the impression that controlled airspace means that you are talking to a controller. That shows up in these forums on occasion. We would all be better off if we limited ourselves to the alphabetical designators in FAR 91.155; had you asked about travel in Class G airspace instead of using the word uncontrolled the responses you got would have been different.

Bob
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top