IFR In Aircraft Not Rated For IMC

Direct C51

Direct C51

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Direct C51
Been lurking for awhile, figured it's time to start participating.

I fly a helicopter with ADF only (AH-64D Apache). We also have a non certified, GPS, with corruptible database. I am an instrument rated pilot and do an Instrument eval yearly in the Apache, however this merely consists of an instrument takeoff, NDB holding/approach, radar approach, and 'practice' GPS approaches to be used for emergency only. I am also a private ASEL pilot thinking of getting a fixed wing IR.

My question is, I would like to file IFR and do some flight under Instrument Flight Rules in the Apache. The first problem is the Apache is not approved for flight in IMC. How would I fly an IFR flight and ensure I am not told to fly through any IMC besides flying only during a day of severe clear? Also, NDBs are hard to come by now days and NDB hopping doesn't seem to get me very far. Is there any way at all to use our non certified GPS if flying only VMC and doing only visual approaches? We fly GPS approaches in VMC at our home base but also preface the request with 'request practice GPS XX approach'. I'm just trying to find a way to fly an actual IFR flight and not feel like a wannabe IFR pilot.
 
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It's not approved for IFR flight. Period.

You can get practice VFR approaches that will go like this "Helicopter 12345 cleared for ILS 5, practice approach approved maintain VFR no separation services provided
 
Z06_Mir said:
It's not approved for IFR flight. Period.

You can get practice VFR approaches that will go like this "Helicopter 12345 cleared for ILS 5, practice approach approved maintain VFR no separation services provided
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You certain about that? I'm thinking of the da20 which is not certified for imc, but is often used for instrument training. I was pretty sure you could file IFR and just cancel if necessary to avoid IMC. Obviously the plane/helicopter would need the required equipment for IFR and the PIC would need to be appropriately rated.
 
dukeblue219 said:
You certain about that? I'm thinking of the da20 which is not certified for imc, but is often used for instrument training. I was pretty sure you could file IFR and just cancel if necessary to avoid IMC. Obviously the plane/helicopter would need the required equipment for IFR and the PIC would need to be appropriately rated.
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You can instrument train until the wings fall off. BUT it's not legal for IFR flight... aka flying under instrument flight rules. I'm guessing that they are taking a different, IFR legal, aircraft on the required IFR cross country. The airplane has to be legal and current, just like the pilot, for IFR flight. IFR practice under visual flight rules is totally different.
 
dukeblue219 said:
I can't vouch that this is the most current thinking, but at least in 2010 the FAA seemed ok with it http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2010/Theriault.pdf
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That letter says the helicopter doesn't need to be instrument certified... but it still needs to meet http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim1001.html



"Center, Helicopter 12345 needs to deviate 20* west for some very light cirrus"
"Helicopter 12345......... :mad2::lol::mad2::dunno:"
 
Z06_Mir said:
That letter says the helicopter doesn't need to be instrument certified... but it still needs to meet http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim1001.html



"Center, Helicopter 12345 needs to deviate 20* west for some very light cirrus"
"Helicopter 12345......... :mad2::lol::mad2::dunno:"
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Seems to me that the pilot can request a new heading and, if that heading is denied, can cancel the IFR flight plan...

I don't see the big deal, but I'm just an instrument student. Maybe this is a learning opportunity for me!
 
Nate your answer isn't in the FARs, it's in AR95-1 ch 5 which takes precidence over the FARs. In a nutshell it says to operate a GPS for IFR flight, it has to be an IFR certified GPS with a non corruptable database. It also has to have the Y code loaded for PPS. The flight plan will also indicate your equipment suffix (/G). User defined waypoints can only be used for an Emergency Copter GPS. Only an IFR GPS can be used to substitute for an ADF, DME or VOR. So that eliminates any enroute stuff.
Also you are to use only approved DOD/govt IAP for arrival. Basically you'd be reduced to doing an ADF on arrival. Essentially you guys could file IFR in the local area for vectors for a GCA or ADF, but that's about it.
If it said IMC you guys would be good, unfortunately you have to have these requirements just for flying IFR with the GPS.

You guys are getting new Block III "Guardian" aren't you? That thing is IFR certified. Still, I don't see the need to certify the Apache IFR. In Black Hawk maybe 20 % of our flight in the States are IFR. In combat 0 %. It's just not needed for our type of flying.
 
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The issue is not the FAA, but the US Army. Don't get caught breaking Army Regulations. And actually filing for and accepting an IFR clearance in that US Army aircraft when the weather is reported IMC would be a great way to provide concrete, irrefutable evidence of that.
 
I think the confusion is between IFR and IMC. I may be completely off on this one, but as I understand it, we are capble of flying IFR, however the aircraft is not approved for flight in IMC conditions. Is this something that is possible or just something we have all been told but no one questioned? Is there any way to receive a legal IFR clearance and fly it? What if the entire enroute portion was radar vectors or NDBs with a visual or NDB approach?

McFly- I am familiar with what you are talking about in the required equipment table in 95-1, however that one little note is under "Nav Equipment" under the "IMC" column. To add to the confusion the note does say "GPS navigation systems used for IFR must have a current non-corruptible database and comply with all FAA TSO C-129 (A-1) requirements." BTW the Block III program is delayed, and I can only imagine them being further delayed or canceled with the sequestration.

Ron - Not sure what you are talking about, but I certainly do not want to accept an IFR clearance in IMC, I am very explicit about this being a VMC flight under Instrument Flight Rules. Our AR 95-1 states "All Army aircraft that are instrumented for IFR flight and are flown by an instrument rated pilot will operate on IFR flight plans...". My question is if we are indeed "instrumented for IFR flight", but not approved for IMC flight.

If I am not mistaken, the Apache meets all of the IFR required equipment of GRAB CARD.
 
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Direct C51 said:
Ron - Not sure what you are talking about, but I certainly do not want to accept an IFR clearance in IMC, I am very explicit about this being a VMC flight under Instrument Flight Rules. Our AR 95-1 states "All Army aircraft that are instrumented for IFR flight and are flown by an instrument rated pilot will operate on IFR flight plans...". My question is if we are indeed "instrumented for IFR flight", but not approved for IMC flight.
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That is strictly an issue for the Army, not the FAA. Ask your unit commander or whatever the Army equivalent of USAF Stan/Eval. In any event, you need sufficient equipment to follow whatever clearance ATC gives you, and with only an ADF, you are probably out of luck -- not too many NDB-only routings available in the US these days.
 
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Well sorry to hear about the delay with the Block IIIs. I know what you're talking about with table 5-2. All that crap applies to IMC. Problem is, early in ch 5 addresses using a GPS for IFR operations. Your GPS is no more than someone using a handheld Garmin as a primary NAV device while on an IFR flight plan. Can't do it, civilian or military. You can't use a VFR GPS to fly direct IFR and you can't use it to substitute for an ADF, DME or VOR. It's like in 60s when we had the 128B. We couldn't use that thing for anything IFR. Once the D came out, and we complied with all the requirments in CH 5, bingo, we filed / G everywhere. Still the piece of junk isn't precision capable. Can't have everything I guess.

Like I said, I think you guys are legal to file local IFR in VMC. Even then the route of flight would be a gray area. What would you use for a NAVAID to get to your destination? What's your Bn or Co SP's opinion on the matter? Ultimately it's their interpretation of the rules that matter.
 
Ron - I understand your concern with Army Regulations and can approach that avenue with my unit Stands guys. My questions to everyone on here is how this particular situation is viewed by FAA regulations. Perhaps it would be beneficial to turn this into a hypothetical question involving a civil helicopter with the same equipment, as I am trying to understand more thoroughly the FAA requirments on the matter. The only place that says the aircraft is not approved for IMC flight is in the operating manual. I am trying to figure out if and how this aircraft can legally be flown under IFR according to the FAA.
 
Direct C51 said:
Ron - I understand your concern with Army Regulations and can approach that avenue with my unit Stands guys.
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Correct approach.
My questions to everyone on here is how this particular situation is viewed by FAA regulations. Perhaps it would be beneficial to turn this into a hypothetical question involving a civil helicopter with the same equipment,
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The FAA answered that a while back, and it's covered in 91.205(d)(2). You need whatever nav gear is required to fly the clearance you're given by ATC. If you can get ATC to give you an all-NDB routing, you're good to go with that ADF you have (assuming there's an NDB approach available at your destination). If not, you're stuck. It doesn't matter whether you're in VMC or IMC -- all that matters is whether or not you can fly the routing you're given with the gear you have. And even if you use the word "practice," if your GPS is not certified (see the definition of "Suitable RNAV system" in 14 CFR 1.1), you cannot legally do those "practice" RNAV approaches under IFR even in VMC -- only under VFR.
 
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Velocity173 said:
What's your Bn or Co SP's opinion on the matter? Ultimately it's their interpretation of the rules that matter.
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Exactly my problem. Us Apache guys are so far from being IFR capable pilots that even the Apache Instrument Examiners can't give me a straight answer, which is why I am curious of the FAAs view on the matter.

I think NDB hopping is my only hope. Its sounding like that would be the only NAVAID we could legally use. It's a shame we have such sophisticated systems, and a very capable aircraft, but being able to change the waypoints keeps us from using it all. It would be nice to partition a set of waypoints for a non corruptible database.
 
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Direct C51 said:
I think NDB hopping is my only hope. Its sounding like that would be the only NAVAID we could legally use
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I agree. And finding enough NDB's with sufficient service volume close enough together for your route to where you want to go and then getting ATC to give you that route may not be possible even if the Army says it's OK. This ADF-only IFR debate is one which has been hashed out before, and the FAA Counsel gave us the answer described above -- you must have whatever it takes to fly the route ATC gives you. If you can talk them into an all-NDB route, mighty fine; if not, you go VFR only regardless of how good the weather is.
 
Ron Levy said:
You need whatever nav gear is required to fly the clearance you're given by ATC. If you can get ATC to give you an all-NDB routing, you're good to go with that ADF you have (assuming there's an NDB approach available at your destination).
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Is it at all possible to get a clearance with routing VIA NDB and plan for a visual approach?
 
Direct C51 said:
Is it at all possible to get a clearance with routing VIA NDB and plan for a visual approach?
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No. Asked and answered by the Counsel. Think lost comm -- if you can't get vectored for the visual, how do you get down out of the goo?
 
Ron Levy said:
No. Asked and answered by the Counsel. Think lost comm -- if you can't get vectored for the visual, how do you get down out of the goo?
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Thanks for all of your help on the subject. Most of my dreams have been crushed this evening. I'm bound to receive an IFR clearance in the Apache though. Maybe I'll find a very short flight with routing between 2 NDBs and an NDB approach at the second. I'm flying with an Instrument Examiner for my yearly eval soon and would like to make more of the opportunity rather than a radar approach and practice GPS approaches all under VFR.
 
Direct C51 said:
Exactly my problem. Us Apache guys are so far from being IFR capable pilots that even the Apache Instrument Examiners can't give me a straight answer, which is why I am curious of the FAAs view on the matter.

I think NDB hopping is my only hope. Its sounding like that would be the only NAVAID we could legally use. It's a shame we have such sophisticated systems, and a very capable aircraft, but being able to change the waypoints keeps us from using it all. It would be nice to partition a set of waypoints for a non corruptible database.
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In the IE course one of the Hawaii KW guys said they file IFR for training but VMC. He said they use their embedded GPS for the enroute NAV stuff and once they approach IMC they have to cancel. It was a general concensus in the class that since it was a VFR GPS they couldn't use it for IFR NAV.

I know what you mean about having technology and not being able to operate IFR. I fly a B407 with glass, TCAS, TAWS, Garmin 530, and equipped with all the basic instruments required by the FARs to be instrument certified. Since we have no SAS or autopilot we're restricted to VFR ops. In the majority of EMS flights we have no need for IFR capability, so they'll never upgrade it.
 
Velocity173 said:
In the IE course one of the Hawaii KW guys said they file IFR for training but VMC. He said they use their embedded GPS for the enroute NAV stuff and once they approach IMC they have to cancel. It was a general concensus in the class that since it was a VFR GPS they couldn't use it for IFR NAV.
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We certainly could do it and get away with it. Our GPS position confidence is better than any civil GPS, until you fat finger the wrong lat long.

Perhaps I could do something similar to what I heard today during a run up. A hawk at FBG was receiving an IFR clearance from ground to FBG. I didn't catch the rest but assume he is departing FBG to some navaids then back to FBG. Could I just file IFR from FBG-FGP-POB-FGP for the NDB 27 to FBG, assuming FGP and POB are operational?
 
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Direct C51 said:
We certainly could do it and get away with it. Our GPS position confidence is better than any civil GPS, until you fat finger the wrong lat long.

Perhaps I could do something similar to what I heard today during a run up. A hawk at FBG was receiving an IFR clearance from ground to FBG. I didn't catch the rest but assume he is departing FBG to some navaids then back to FBG. Could I just file IFR from FBG-FGP-POB-FGP for the NDB 27 to FBG, assuming FGP and POB are operational?
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Yeah that looks legal to me. I think you could file that IFR under VMC. Also, I heard your flight manual specifically says you're restricted to VMC only. Is this true? I would think your MFDs have all the basics instruments for IFR flight.
 
Direct C51 said:
We certainly could do it and get away with it. Our GPS position confidence is better than any civil GPS, until you fat finger the wrong lat long.

Perhaps I could do something similar to what I heard today during a run up. A hawk at FBG was receiving an IFR clearance from ground to FBG. I didn't catch the rest but assume he is departing FBG to some navaids then back to FBG. Could I just file IFR from FBG-FGP-POB-FGP for the NDB 27 to FBG, assuming FGP and POB are operational?
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Hey do you ever fly over to TTA?

That's my home base, i'm used to seeing AH-64's doing night practice out there.
 
McFly- Our operators manual (-10) states 'this aircraft is not qualified for IMC flight'. Not sure why, it meets the FARs and 95-1.

Ren- We fly out to TTA every now and then. The guard guys from Raleigh do it as well. When they come in the wrong direction, not talking to anyone, that is the guard unit. I'm also a member of the flying club at TTA, on the civil side.
 
Direct C51 said:
McFly- Our operators manual (-10) states 'this aircraft is not qualified for IMC flight'. Not sure why, it meets the FARs and 95-1.

Ren- We fly out to TTA every now and then. The guard guys from Raleigh do it as well. When they come in the wrong direction, not talking to anyone, that is the guard unit. I'm also a member of the flying club at TTA, on the civil side.
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I'm a member of the club too, got my private and instrument rating there. If you decide to pursue the fixed wing IR and need a safety pilot, i'll be glad to help.
 
Direct C51 said:
Perhaps I could do something similar to what I heard today during a run up. A hawk at FBG was receiving an IFR clearance from ground to FBG. I didn't catch the rest but assume he is departing FBG to some navaids then back to FBG. Could I just file IFR from FBG-FGP-POB-FGP for the NDB 27 to FBG, assuming FGP and POB are operational?
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You can certainly file it. Whether ATC will give it to you is another story entirely. Just make sure that whatever clearance you accept is one you can fly with the certified equipment you have on board.
 
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Ron Levy said:
No. Asked and answered by the Counsel. Think lost comm -- if you can't get vectored for the visual, how do you get down out of the goo?
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Guess you've never been given a "via vectors" clearance then? Fairly common around here.
 
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