IFR Hold Above a Power Plant

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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ARFlyer
While flying our new GPS approach I noticed that the HILPT puts you circling roughly 1500' AGL above a local power plant. When I mean above, I mean I did my 180 turn completely inside the footprint of the plant. Also to put this into perspective, this plant is located in the middle of fields with nothing around for several miles.

Would any of you feel uncomfortable holding above the plant, especially with the blanket TFR on the subject? If so, would would intentionally shorten your leg length to avoid overflying the footprint ?
 
No. It's published. Plus, if you're holding, you're probably in IMC/above the cloud layer so no one is going to freak out.
 
EdFred said:
No. It's published. Plus, if you're holding, you're probably in IMC/above the cloud layer so no one is going to freak out.
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True

I just happened to think about it while flying the approach VMC with my student.

It is a nice view of the workings of a gas power plant.
 
If that's where it's published, ...no I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm surprised tho' that DHS wouldn't have a problem with it? So much for the promise of improved communication between government agencies :rolleyes:
 
peerlesscowboy said:
I'm surprised tho' that DHS wouldn't have a problem with it? So much for the promise of improved communication between government agencies :rolleyes:
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Well imagine the length of time it would take to get every approach inspected by DHS for national security concerns. :eek: Plus if we really do have to treat every plant like a no-fly zone then it needs to be charted. The kicker is that some of the base navigation data comes from the DoD. :nonod:

I'm more worried about the local Barney Fife and his ego. :mad2:
 
ARFlyer said:
Well imagine the length of time it would take to get every approach inspected by DHS for national security concerns. :eek: Plus if we really do have to treat every plant like a no-fly zone then it needs to be charted. The kicker is that some of the base navigation data comes from the DoD. :nonod:

I'm more worried about the local Barney Fife and his ego. :mad2:
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Well, the FAA flight checks these things occasionally don't they? Haven't they ever heard of the prohibition of loitering over power plants, etc?
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Well, the FAA flight checks these things occasionally don't they? Haven't they ever heard of the prohibition of loitering over power plants, etc?
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It's been flight checked at least times this year. They most likely didn't notice it. Plus, like you and EdFred said its on the published course. Now that doesn't mean people can't end up like that gilder dude. :eek:
 
I wouldn't consider an assigned hold to be "loitering," regardless of what's below.

ATC once instructed me to hold over a junior college near the field. Round and round I went.
 
ARFlyer said:
While flying our new GPS approach I noticed that the HILPT puts you circling roughly 1500' AGL above a local power plant. When I mean above, I mean I did my 180 turn completely inside the footprint of the plant. Also to put this into perspective, this plant is located in the middle of fields with nothing around for several miles.

Would any of you feel uncomfortable holding above the plant, especially with the blanket TFR on the subject? If so, would would intentionally shorten your leg length to avoid overflying the footprint ?
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Blanket TFR?:confused:
 
Lindberg said:
Blanket TFR?:confused:
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There use to be a blanket TFR for overflight and/or loitering next to power plants, dams, communication sites, etc....

Even though I can't find a current version of this TFR, I'd still treat it as being active and enforced.
 
ARFlyer said:
There use to be a blanket TFR for overflight and/or loitering next to power plants, dams, communication sites, etc....

Even though I can't find a current version of this TFR, I'd still treat it as being active and enforced.
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That's been gone for years- right after they realized they'd just painted a big "Important Stuff Here" sign on every high-value target a terrorist might be interested in.
 
warthog1984 said:
That's been gone for years- right after they realized they'd just painted a big "Important Stuff Here" sign on every high-value target a terrorist might be interested in.
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Glad they realized that! :rofl:

I know we are still told to look out for people with an abnormal interest in infrastructure beyond the "Hey, that's cool, let's look at that!".

I still give a wide berth to that stuff just to be on the safe side. Plus, I've already seen dams, communication sites, and power plants inside and out. I was practically raised in the engineering building of a transmitter site. I'm radioactive man.... :rofl:
 
warthog1984 said:
That's been gone for years- right after they realized they'd just painted a big "Important Stuff Here" sign on every high-value target a terrorist might be interested in.
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Still current. I just looked it up.

FDC 4/0811 FDC ...SPECIAL NOTICE... THIS IS A RESTATEMENT OF A PREVIOUSLY ISSUED ADVISORY NOTICE. IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PILOTS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE, OR IN PROXIMITY TO SUCH SITES AS POWER PLANTS (NUCLEAR, HYDRO-ELECTRIC, OR COAL), DAMS, REFINERIES, INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, MILITARY FACILITIES AND OTHER SIMILAR FACILITIES. PILOTS SHOULD NOT CIRCLE AS TO LOITER IN THE VICINITY OVER THESE TYPES OF FACILITIES.
 
ghogue said:
Still current. I just looked it up.

FDC 4/0811 FDC ...SPECIAL NOTICE... THIS IS A RESTATEMENT OF A PREVIOUSLY ISSUED ADVISORY NOTICE. IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PILOTS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE, OR IN PROXIMITY TO SUCH SITES AS POWER PLANTS (NUCLEAR, HYDRO-ELECTRIC, OR COAL), DAMS, REFINERIES, INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, MILITARY FACILITIES AND OTHER SIMILAR FACILITIES. PILOTS SHOULD NOT CIRCLE AS TO LOITER IN THE VICINITY OVER THESE TYPES OF FACILITIES.
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Well I guess it's still active. Thanks for finding it!
 
warthog1984 said:
That's been gone for years- right after they realized they'd just painted a big "Important Stuff Here" sign on every high-value target a terrorist might be interested in.
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I thought it was still in effect :dunno: They come up with this stuff with a lot of fanfare and then it quietly goes away.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
I thought it was still in effect :dunno: They come up with this stuff with a lot of fanfare and then it quietly goes away.
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The non-enforceable "advisory" is still on the books, but the actual TFR / no-fly zone is long gone.

And yes, at one point they did have big circles the Gov itself put on charts to warn people to "pretty please stay away from the vulnerable stuff".
 
warthog1984 said:
The non-enforceable "advisory" is still on the books, but the actual TFR / no-fly zone is long gone.

And yes, at one point they did have big circles the Gov itself put on charts to warn people to "pretty please stay away from the vulnerable stuff".
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Yes , you're correct, the actual TFR's disappeared a few months after 9/11, replaced by the FDC NOTAM.
 
ARFlyer said:
While flying our new GPS approach I noticed that the HILPT puts you circling roughly 1500' AGL above a local power plant. When I mean above, I mean I did my 180 turn completely inside the footprint of the plant. Also to put this into perspective, this plant is located in the middle of fields with nothing around for several miles.

Would any of you feel uncomfortable holding above the plant, especially with the blanket TFR on the subject? If so, would would intentionally shorten your leg length to avoid overflying the footprint ?
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I'd be fine with it, the TFR is irrelevant, you're on with ATC. As for holding over the plant, it's the safest place to be since any glide ratio at all in any direction will have anywhere but there, and there is the last place you want to be.;)
 
kkoran said:
It's not the FAA that cares.
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Exactly, and it's them that control the airspace, so if they want that procedure to be there, they will damn well put it there. You don't screw with IFR operations for stupidity.
 
warthog1984 said:
The FAA isn't worried about loitering over a natural gas powered peaker plant.

They do care about loitering over reactor piles.
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There's a nuke plant a few miles south of my home field. We fly over it all the time. Don't really think about it much. Why should we? Its just another building to fly over.

Its not like we need a TFR over every little thing.
 
UngaWunga said:
There's a nuke plant a few miles south of my home field. We fly over it all the time. Don't really think about it much. Why should we? Its just another building to fly over.

Its not like we need a TFR over every little thing.
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Do not concern yourself, what they don't want you to do is loiter, but that doesn't include a couple of laps to take a look, show a kid, or get a few pictures.
If you want to loiter for a while, do what I did on photo runs and just call ATC and tell them, "Hey, I need to get some pictures of the nuclear plant and the surrounding estuary and I will be on station for about 5 minutes." and they tell you, "Ok, thanks for letting us know."

They all know that we have absolutely no ability to do critical damage, here is what happens: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjhxuhTmGk

However we can cause injury or a major power outage so they get a bit nervous if you are there to long. As long as you talk to someone about it, it's all good. I would say 95% of the GA flights going to the Fla Keys fly directly over a nuke plant.
 
Nuclear plant west of Russellville is within the bounds of the Victor route from Russellville to Ft. Smith, Arkansas. I once caught a big surprise burble from the cooling tower plume while wearing blinders for IFR training.
 
Your Cessna would just be a black smudge on the containment dome like Henning stated.

Now don't go flying into an old soviet style reactor. There is nothing between you and the main pile besides some sheet metal and steel.
 
Henning said:
I'd be fine with it, the TFR is irrelevant, you're on with ATC. As for holding over the plant, it's the safest place to be since any glide ratio at all in any direction will have anywhere but there, and there is the last place you want to be.;)
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It's a bit like car racing they say head directly for the spinning car infront of you it won't be there by the time you get there. :goofy:
 
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