ifr gps' available

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Let'sgoflying!, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Feb 23, 2005
    west Texas
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    Dave Taylor
    I need a list of ifr gps', with a view to a new installation for my airplane.

    'Just in case' I am able to nurse my engine into 2006, I may go for one.

    Maybe a '*' beside the ones that are upgradeable to waas?


  2. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

    Feb 22, 2005
    DC Suburbs
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    Bill S.

    The only one currently WAAS capable out of the box is the Garmin (UPSAT) 480. It's really intended to work with an MX20 MFD.

    The other two Garmin boxes (430/530 & derivatives) are supposed to be upgradable "any day now". It will require a motherboard swap.

    I think the KLN-94 is IFR capable.

    There are a lot of older boxes on the market that are approach capable, like the Trimble 2000 Approach, the UPSAT models, etc. Those should be relatively inexpensive, but I've found the install cost is high enough that you might want to think about the value proposition of one of the newer boxes.

    I have a Garmin 430 and a Trimble 2000T (enroute, but not approach certified) in my plane. The Trimble has limited storage on the datacards, and Jepp is constantly dropping waypoints. Someday (hopefully after I change planes) the Trimble will have to be replaced.
  3. grattonja

    grattonja Line Up and Wait

    Feb 23, 2005
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    saratoga driver
    If you wanted IFR capable and fairly reasonable in price, you might look at the KLN 89B. They were what all the new skyhawks got at first, and most were then swapped out for the KLN 94 with color map. The 89B has a map, and is IFR certified with approaches in it, but a bit more difficult to pick up at first than the KLN 94. Prices on the used 89B have been decent. Don't know about installation, as I am a mere renter still, but I know the equipment itself, and tray, can be picked up for under $1K.

    Jim G
  4. Jbeckley

    Jbeckley Guest

    Would the gns-430 work as an IFR aproach when coupled to a KI-214 indicator.
  5. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Feb 23, 2005
    west Texas
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    Dave Taylor
    I should have mentioned "approach capable".

    OK, here is the list so far if I read you guys right:

    G 480 **
    G 530*
    G 430 *

    KLN 94
    KLN 89B

    unsupported models(?):
    Trimble A2000
    ** means waas capable
    * means waas upgradable

    Is that it?

    Also presumably each will require an antenna, a new CDI (all I have is a KI 208 and a KI 209), plus an annunciator/switch panel.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2005
  6. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

    Feb 21, 2005
    Jacksonville, Florida
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    Ken Ibold
    There are lots more options, and with each one you get a different set of pluses and minuses. Your choice also depends on what else you have in the panel. If you have two nice com radios, for example, you might get a few bucks for one of them if you go for a Garmin 530. If you go with something like the Garmin 155XL TSO or the King KLN 90B, you might end up with so much installation cost for the annunciators that it makes more sense to go with a Garmin 430 (internal annunciators) instead. You are embarking on a complex undertaking.

    I'd suggest you go to www.avionix.com and in the "Avionics Guidebook" section visit both the "GPS (panel mounted)" and "GPS/COM (panel mounted)" sections. It will tell you what kind of annunciators and indicators each one pairs with. Despite the fact that this site is trying to sell you avionics, I have found their editorializing remarkably candid and accurate.
  7. gismo

    gismo Touchdown! Greaser!

    Feb 28, 2005
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    I have owned a KLN-89B, and a KLN-94 and can say with no reservation that the '94 is way better than the '89B. I've also flown with the KLN-90 (King's first IFR approach capable GPS) and strongly recommend you skip that one. With some time behind Garmin's GNS-4/5xx I'd rate them as slightly better than the '94 WRT GPS (of course the nav/comm features give this Garmin line a big leg up on the KLN-94.

    BTW I happen to have a KLN-94 that's about to become available at a reasonable but so far undetermined price if you are interested drop me an email at lfisher@*delete-me*cyberoptics.com.

    Here's a post from another webboard about IFR GPS installations that you might find interesting:
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Collins [mailto:johncollins at carolina.rr.com]
    Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:25 AM
    To: beech-owners at beechcraft.org
    Subject: B: Where does the expense come from on GPS installation

    There are several factors that add into the total expense of installing an
    IFR GPS.

    1) For a GPS to be approved for non precision approaches, it needs to be
    interfaced to a CDI in the primary view of the pilot.

    The CDI needs to have at least the signals for left/right and to/from to be
    available for Northstar and Apollo and in addition, the OBS resolver signals
    for King and Garmin. Unfortunately, the majority of installed CDI's do not
    have these signals available. Examples that do not have them available are
    KI208, KI209. Examples of CDI's that do have the required signals are: all
    HSI's, the KI206, KI207, KI208A, KI209A, and the Collins IND 350/351.

    What complicates matters is that if a CDI is to be shared with a Nav
    receiver, it must be compatible with both the Nav receiver and the GPS. If
    the aircraft has an HSI or the Nav receiver uses a compatible CDI, the
    existing CDI may be used. Examples of common Nav receivers that use a CDI
    compatible with the GPS are: Collins VIR350, VIR351, KX165, KNS80, and
    KNS81. The KX155 and the KN53 do not directly interface to a compatible
    CDI, but can interface via a box called an "LOC/VOR Convertor". The KI208A
    and KI209A have a built in LOC/VOR Convertor to interface with a Nav
    Receiver and a GPS relay to provide the raw signals needed by the GPS. So
    changing out an existing KI208/9 with a KI208A/9A is often the most
    economical solution. CDI's can cost up to $1,600 new and Loc/Converters over

    If a shared CDI is indicated, there needs to be a switch and relay to switch
    the signals between the GPS and the Nav receiver. This can be done with
    discrete components, but it is often better to use an annunciator control
    unit such as an MD41. MD41's cost between $750 and $1000 new.

    2) For all GPS'es except the Garmin 4xx/5xx and the new UPS CNX80, there are
    required indicators and switches for the control of the GPS and approach
    functions . They may be done with discrete components or use the built in
    ones in an Annunciator Control Unit such as the MD41.

    3) All GPS's must interface to an encoding altimeter as part of the IFR

    4) The installation must be field approved (except the CNX80 if it has an
    STC for your aircraft) and as part of the IFR approval there needs to be a
    Flight Manual Supplement approved for your particular aircraft and its
    unique installation.

    5) When you purchase a used GPS and Annunciator Control Unit, you need to be
    sure it is compatible with your aircraft voltage. Many of the early Garmin
    430's are 24 volt only and need a 14 to 24 voltage convertor if installed in
    a 14 volt aircraft. Also, the MD41's are either 14 or 24 Volt, so buyer be
    aware of what you are buying. A 24 volt to 14 convertor can cost up to $600

    6) Another consideration is where to mount the GPS antenna. The best spot
    is directly above the cabin, often where the Beech V antenna is. If you
    decide to move antenna locations or change out antennas, this can add quite
    a bit of expense. Also, many existing Com installations interfere with the
    GPS and notch filters ($40 to $50) need to be added to obtain satisfactory
    performance (my experience this is needed in about half of the

    7) Many GPS'es generate a lot of heat and require a forced air fan. This
    can cost $150 new.

    8) Installation can take anywhere from 20 to 40 hours of labor to install a

    So, what is the least expensive IFR installation. Probably a used M3 with a
    dedicated CDI such as the MD40. It has all of the required annunciators in
    the CDI and doesn't require any switching. Installations with HSI's or
    compatible CDI's are less expensive. Installation costs of new Garmin
    4xx/5xx or CNX80 with an existing HSI are often very competitive and a
    better value than installing an older unit. If you are deciding between a
    430 and a 530, you can usually work a better deal with a 530 as there is
    typically no additional installation cost. I would work the best deal on a
    430 and then propose the dealer take the same dollar markup on the 530, so
    if the 430 was $7000 plus installation of $2500, I would offer $10,450 for
    the 530 plus $2500 for installation. The dealer makes the same, gets your
    sale, and there is no extra effort.

    What I recommend is to get your installer to review a potential installation
    before you buy any equipment. Then it is less likely that you will be
    unpleasantly supprised when the bargain you got on the GPS doesn't pan out.


    John Collins