IFR - Expect xx000 in 5 minutes

[skidoo]

Say you are flying level and ATC says maintain altitude and expect xx000 ft in 5 minutes, contact xyz center on 1xx.xx. So, you note your time, change frequency and make the call. ATC does not respond to the call and you don't notice, thinking you are still in contact. 5 minutes pass and you haven't heard from ATC to begin climbing. So, you call ATC and ask if you should begin climbing now. No response, so you check the frequency and notice you were off a digit. You get that dialed in and hear ATC calling you to climb and maintain xx000ft. So, you begin climb, readback to ATC and go on with your flight. But, because of the mixup, you climb did not begin until after 7 minutes.

So, my question is this. AT the 5 minute mark, should you begin that expected climb even if you had not heard from ATC telling you to begin the climb? For example, should you have started the climb at 5 minutes and reported (as opposed to requested prior) to ATC that you began your climb and then when you notice no response, do your troubleshooting?

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Loss of communication rules say you climb to the expected altitude. Whether it is radio failure or your dialing error, you had a communication failure. Squawk 7600 and begin the climb to the expected altitude at the five minute mark.

 

[gismo]

Say you are flying level and ATC says maintain altitude and expect xx000 ft in 5 minutes, contact xyz center on 1xx.xx. So, you note your time, change frequency and make the call. ATC does not respond to the call and you don't notice, thinking you are still in contact. 5 minutes pass and you haven't heard from ATC to begin climbing. So, you call ATC and ask if you should begin climbing now. No response, so you check the frequency and notice you were off a digit. You get that dialed in and hear ATC calling you to climb and maintain xx000ft. So, you begin climb, readback to ATC and go on with your flight. But, because of the mixup, you climb did not begin until after 7 minutes.

So, my question is this. AT the 5 minute mark, should you begin that expected climb even if you had not heard from ATC telling you to begin the climb? For example, should you have started the climb at 5 minutes and reported (as opposed to requested prior) to ATC that you began your climb and then when you notice no response, do your troubleshooting?

If I understand your question I'd say the answer is no.

Any EFC is solely a CYA mechanism for comm failures. As long as you believe comm is open (working) an EFC climb does NOT mean you should begin climbing when the time in the EFC arrives. If OTOH, if the clearance was along the lines of "after passing XYZ climb and maintain XX thousand you would be expected to start that climb at the specified point whether or not you thought you were experiencing a comm failure.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Good points Lance. He should have done more to verify his radios (try last controller, verify frequency dialed, try COM2, etc.). But, as described, with no contact after the elapsed "expect" time, I maintain he's got a lost Comm situation and should squawk 7600 and comply with the expected clearance.

 

[poadeleted20]

Loss of communication rules say you climb to the expected altitude. Whether it is radio failure or your dialing error, you had a communication failure. Squawk 7600 and begin the climb to the expected altitude at the five minute mark.

...if and only if you've really lost comm. Start by trouble-shooting your comms, including headset plugs, audio panel, tuned frequency, second radio, 121.5, listen on VOR's, try the handheld, etc., before you revert to the 91.185(c) lost comm routine. Since the OP's problem was somehow having twisted the radio off freq, that would not be a true lost comm situation, just a pilot error, and if you caused a problem by climbing after creating your own self-correctable not-truly-lost comm situation, the FAA might not like it.

 

[gismo]

Good points Lance. He should have done more to verify his radios (try last controller, verify frequency dialed, try COM2, etc.). But, as described, with no contact after the elapsed "expect" time, I maintain he's got a lost Comm situation and should squawk 7600 and comply with the expected clearance.

I do agree that once you've exhausted the options for establishing comm (e.g. check for a different freq (next sector, FSS, 121.5 etc), try a different radio, or have some explicit reason (e.g. loss of electric power) the comm loss becomes real and the EFC along with it (as well as all the other lost comm stuff). But just because you or ATC fumbled a handoff doesn't give you leave to execute any EFC actions.

An exception would be if you knew (as you should) that you are coming up on a terrain and/or obstacle issue in which case a climb may be necessary whether or not you have an EFC to follow or even a true loss of comm. At that point your emergency authority kicks in.

 

[frfly172]

Expect an altitude in so many minutes does not mean climb to that altitude.The controller will often give you higher before the e pelted time,or may give it to you a little later depending on traffic ,I agree I would always check commas first easiest with last controller because you know that freq is correct,sometimes the fingers and the brain are not in sinc.

 

[JeffDG]

I would think that part of that would depend on the terrain around you too.

If you're in an area where the EFC is to get you above rising terrain, then start your climb and troubleshoot the radio on the way up.

 

[poadeleted20]

I would think that part of that would depend on the terrain around you too.

If you're in an area where the EFC is to get you above rising terrain, then start your climb and troubleshoot the radio on the way up.

"Expect higher" is solely for traffic control purposes, not obstruction clearance. They do not use "expect higher" clearances to deal with terrain. That's what MEA's are for. And from a pilot's perspective, neither is for any purpose other than lost comm.

 

[Clip4]

Say you are flying level and ATC says maintain altitude and expect xx000 ft in 5 minutes, contact xyz center on 1xx.xx. So, you note your time, change frequency and make the call. ATC does not respond to the call and you don't notice, thinking you are still in contact. 5 minutes pass and you haven't heard from ATC to begin climbing. So, you call ATC and ask if you should begin climbing now. No response, so you check the frequency and notice you were off a digit. You get that dialed in and hear ATC calling you to climb and maintain xx000ft. So, you begin climb, readback to ATC and go on with your flight. But, because of the mixup, you climb did not begin until after 7 minutes.

So, my question is this. AT the 5 minute mark, should you begin that expected climb even if you had not heard from ATC telling you to begin the climb? For example, should you have started the climb at 5 minutes and reported (as opposed to requested prior) to ATC that you began your climb and then when you notice no response, do your troubleshooting?

If you are given a hand off, make the call and ATC doesn't answer, how do you not notice and think you are still in contact?

 

[dell30rb]

To answer the OP's question, no you should not begin the climb at five minutes out just because you haven't heard from them. You did the right thing by querying ATC before climbing. Once you established that you were out of communication, and the five minutes had passed, you should then begin your climb.

I would define out of communication as making a few tries to contact them and checking the frequency. Perhaps switching to com 2 if you feel so inclined. If you got that far and still no contact, go ahead and squawk 7600 and climb on up. Do more troubleshooting when you have the time.

Oh, and you learned a lesson too... establishing communications with ATC on a frequency is a two-way street. If you make the initial call and don't hear back from them - either something is wrong or they were busy and you need to call again.

 

[Velocity173]

Most likely you're not going to get a transmission that says to expect higher in 5 mins combined with a freq change. The controller would be guessing as to when you could get higher without knowing center's traffic situation. If it's an altitude request other than filed and during the handoff it'll have to be approved by the receiving controller as well. In that case "N12345 you can make your request with XYZ Center, contact XYZ Center now on 127.8" Or if the controller is fast on the landline "XYZ center, N12345 requests five thousand." "Approved."

 

[skidoo]

If you are given a hand off, make the call and ATC doesn't answer, how do you not notice and think you are still in contact?

In theory, one should always notice. But, stuff happens, distractions, etc.. Perhaps the controller did not give a hand off until say the 4 minute mark. The 5 minute mark comes up seemingly fast when you are busy.

Thanks everyone. It sounds like a consensus that one would not be in trouble for Not climbing right away without specific instruction to do so, but may be in trouble if you do, unless MEA or terrain are an issue. I would think squawking 7600 immediately could compound your issues if you could easily resolve it in the next couple of minutes.

How common is it that a pilot squawks 7600, takes an action, and then re-establishes comm with ATC in less than a 3 minute period? What would ATC think of that? Could you get in trouble because ATC didn't believe you had really lost comms?

 

[dell30rb]

How common is it that a pilot squawks 7600, takes an action, and then re-establishes comm with ATC in less than a 3 minute period? What would ATC think of that? Could you get in trouble because ATC didn't believe you had really lost comms?

No, you would not be in any sort of trouble. They would be relieved to re-establish communication with you as it would make their day much easier.

 

[Palmpilot]

The usual departure instructions from Palo Alto point you at a 3049 foot obstruction, with an instruction to climb and maintain 3000, expect 5000 five minutes after departure. In a lost com situation, the "expect" part of the clearance most definitely has terrain clearance implications. Consequently, in IMC or at night, if you query ATC at the five minute mark and don't hear anything, I'm not sure it's safe to spend time troubleshooting before starting your climb.

If you KNOW there are no obstructions anywhere nearby, that would be different, but if you don't know, I say err on the side of avoiding the rocks, antennas, etc.

 

[denverpilot]

Most likely you're not going to get a transmission that says to expect higher in 5 mins combined with a freq change. The controller would be guessing as to when you could get higher without knowing center's traffic situation. If it's an altitude request other than filed and during the handoff it'll have to be approved by the receiving controller as well. In that case "N12345 you can make your request with XYZ Center, contact XYZ Center now on 127.8" Or if the controller is fast on the landline "XYZ center, N12345 requests five thousand." "Approved."

You get that every time you leave a towered airport. What are you smoking?

 

[Velocity173]

You get that every time you leave a towered airport. What are you smoking?

1.) Towered airport has nothing to do with the expected altitude.
2,) He said he was already in level flight.
3.) I don't smoke.

 

[denverpilot]

1.) Towered airport has nothing to do with the expected altitude.
2,) He said he was already in level flight.
3.) I don't smoke.

You were assuming the overlying airspace doesn't have any agreements with lower airspace. Every clearance from underneath a Bravo shelf I've always gotten an "climb and maintain X, expect Y ZZ minutes after departure". They don't have to be "fast on the landline" to issue that. Just have an agreement with the overlying airspace that they can issue the continuation of the climb as an EFC time.

 

[Velocity173]

You were assuming the overlying airspace doesn't have any agreements with lower airspace. Every clearance from underneath a Bravo shelf I've always gotten an "climb and maintain X, expect Y ZZ minutes after departure". They don't have to be "fast on the landline" to issue that. Just have an agreement with the overlying airspace that they can issue the continuation of the climb as an EFC time.

The OP isn't talking about a clearance received on the ground. Most likely that would be 10 mins anyway for lost commo. He said he was in level flight when ATC gave the altitude assignment and freq change. Towered or Class B has nothing to do with the expected altitude either. You can depart off an uncontrolled airport and you're going to get a time or fix of when to expect your final altitude.

There's no point in the controller assigning an altitude and then giving a 5 min expected time during a handoff. He has no idea when the receiving controller will give him higher. That's why you tell the aircraft to expect higher with "XYZ Center" or just get a quick approval for higher since the handoff has already been made.

Now an aircraft in a controllers sector, they might say expect higher or lower in X miles or time based on their traffic. Different situation than what the OP.

 

[JeffDG]

"Expect higher" is solely for traffic control purposes, not obstruction clearance. They do not use "expect higher" clearances to deal with terrain. That's what MEA's are for. And from a pilot's perspective, neither is for any purpose other than lost comm.

OK, if I head out of TYS for GSP, and I get a clearance "Cleared Direct GSP at 5,000, expect 9,000 10 minutes after departure.", I'll tell you right now, I'm NOT staying at 5,000, because that will put me 1,000' down Clingman's Dome...which that clearance will take me directly over top of.

 

[denverpilot]

That's usually the reason around here for the higher altitude also. Terrain along the route.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I was taught AVEP, in case of lost comms, in order:
assigned (last assign hdg/alt)
vector (if vector, continue to fix)
expected
plan (flight plan)

 

[Palmpilot]

You were assuming the overlying airspace doesn't have any agreements with lower airspace. Every clearance from underneath a Bravo shelf I've always gotten an "climb and maintain X, expect Y ZZ minutes after departure". They don't have to be "fast on the landline" to issue that. Just have an agreement with the overlying airspace that they can issue the continuation of the climb as an EFC time.

In Palo Alto's case, I'm pretty sure that the ground controller is reading the clearance exactly as it was given to them, so I don't think there are any special agreements involved.

 

[denverpilot]

In Palo Alto's case, I'm pretty sure that the ground controller is reading the clearance exactly as it was given to them, so I don't think there are any special agreements involved.

Could be. Around here I think all they do is do a point out of which direction they're launching you to e TRACON and cut you loose. TRACON weaves ya between any high speed aluminum tubing and then clears you to your final cruise altitude on the way out of the Bravo.

 

[Ted]

...if and only if you've really lost comm. Start by trouble-shooting your comms, including headset plugs, audio panel, tuned frequency, second radio, 121.5, listen on VOR's, try the handheld, etc., before you revert to the 91.185(c) lost comm routine. Since the OP's problem was somehow having twisted the radio off freq, that would not be a true lost comm situation, just a pilot error, and if you caused a problem by climbing after creating your own self-correctable not-truly-lost comm situation, the FAA might not like it.

They would like it less if I flew into a mountain.

Actually, who cares what they would like. I would like it less if I flew into a mountain.

 

[Clark1961]

They would like it less if I flew into a mountain.

Actually, who cares what they would like. I would like it less if I flew into a mountain.

You're being much too practical here. Please rephrase your response to acknowledge the theoretical nature of the party to whom you are responding!

 

[denverpilot]

You're being much too practical here. Please rephrase your response to acknowledge the theoretical nature of the party to whom you are responding!

"Climb and maintain something higher than the terrain, expect something completely non-pragmatic from the Internet .1 second after logging on."

 

[flyingron]

Flying into the mountain is not part of the lost comm procedure either. The altitude you were told to expect is only one of the list of altitudes that you are expected to maintain the HIGHEST of.

 

[Velocity173]

Flying into the mountain is not part of the lost comm procedure either. The altitude you were told to expect is only one of the list of altitudes that you are expected to maintain the HIGHEST of.

Exactly. It seems some are confused to the time in the expected altitude. You don't plow into the side of a mountain because you're waiting on 10 minutes to start your climb. If you happen to be below the MIA, climb now!

 

[JeffDG]

Exactly. It seems some are confused to the time in the expected altitude. You don't plow into the side of a mountain because you're waiting on 10 minutes to start your climb. If you happen to be below the MIA, climb now!

The other things is: Climb...then twiddle with your radio to see if you messed up a frequency somewhere.

 

[poadeleted20]

They would like it less if I flew into a mountain.

Actually, who cares what they would like. I would like it less if I flew into a mountain.

If you are in danger of flying into a mountain, you are not going to cause a problem by climbing because unless ATC screwed up, there shouldn't be anyone else there with whom you would lose separation. But I guess I assumed too much in thinking that was obvious.

 

[flyingron]

If you are in danger of flying into a mountain, you are not going to cause a problem by climbing because unless ATC screwed up, there shouldn't be anyone else there with whom you would lose separation. But I guess I assumed too much in thinking that was obvious.

Isn't necessarily a screw up (depending on how long you've been out), you only need file (and typical told to expect) the altitude for the first leg of your flight. I routinely get cleared to 4000 here and I'll need to get to the 6000 before I hit the mountains.

 

[poadeleted20]

Isn't necessarily a screw up (depending on how long you've been out), you only need file (and typical told to expect) the altitude for the first leg of your flight. I routinely get cleared to 4000 here and I'll need to get to the 6000 before I hit the mountains.

The screw-up to which I was referring was ATC having assigned someone else an altitude below the MEA in the same area as you. That's how a loss of separation would occur in the described situation, and that's just not likely. Other than that, you're not going to cause them a problem by climbing to avoid hitting the mountain, and if you don't cause them a problem, they're not likely to be calling the FSDO.

 

[Ted]

If you are in danger of flying into a mountain, you are not going to cause a problem by climbing because unless ATC screwed up, there shouldn't be anyone else there with whom you would lose separation. But I guess I assumed too much in thinking that was obvious.

Well, stating to attempt to fiddle with the radios before climbing, my point was make sure you won't hit a mountain, then fiddle if you're having an issue.

Should be obvious, but CFIT keeps on happening.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, stating to attempt to fiddle with the radios before climbing, my point was make sure you won't hit a mountain, then fiddle if you're having an issue.

I'm with you all the way on that one.

Should be obvious, but CFIT keeps on happening.

Agreed. Too many pilots seem to forget which Italian it was who keeps us in the air -- it's Bernoulli, not Marconi. Or in other words, pilots die because they let go of the stick to grab the microphone, not the other way around.

 

[Ted]

Agreed. Too many pilots seem to forget which Italian it was who keeps us in the air -- it's Bernoulli, not Marconi. Or in other words, pilots die because they let go of the stick to grab the microphone, not the other way around.

To that point, I really like the terrain warnings I get with the 430W/530W. Definitely helps me for peace of mind when in the soup in mountainous areas.

 

[Clip4]

In theory, one should always notice. But, stuff happens, distractions, etc.. Perhaps the controller did not give a hand off until say the 4 minute mark. The 5 minute mark comes up seemingly fast when you are busy.

In theory, I am listening for the controller repeat my tail # and at least give me an altimeter setting. In reality, I know I am not in contact if I don't get a response.