IFR Cruising Altitudes

akpilot907

akpilot907

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
May 14, 2013
Messages
398
Location
Anchorage, Alaska
Display Name
Display name:
citabriav8tr
Question for all you licensed cloud buster pilots!

I was taught that if your flying a easterly heading, its Odd Thousand ft for cruise altitudes, vice versa for a westerly heading (Even Thousand)... I recently read an article in AOPA that says if you are in Radar contact while on an IFR flight plan.... In controlled airspace below FL180, you can file even or odd thousand for any direction, just as long as your in a controlled radar area.

http://flash.aopa.org/asf/ifrinsights_regs/html/regs/a3s11.htm

What and the heck are they talking about... maybe I'm not reading this correctly.. please don't be fustrated with my stupidity if I'm over thinking this.... thanks
 
I filed an IFR plan yesterday that included a 4000' westerly altitude. I was assigned 5000' and stayed at that altitude until the approach. I have been assigned altitudes that break the hemispherical rule, but just never bothered to ask...
 
In Florida it is common to be assigned an altitude your not expecting.The controllers assign the altitude to keep the flow of traffic working for them.
 
Sure it's legal. Now whether it'll get approved or not is a different story. Traffic starts to pick up with the majority at correct altitude for direction and you're the only odd ball, they're probably going to put you on a deconflicting altitude.
 
So, i should still file for hemispherical rule, but if I needed to, I can file w/e above MEA/MOCA?? Odd/ or Even---?
 
frfly172 said:
In Florida it is common to be assigned an altitude your not expecting.The controllers assign the altitude to keep the flow of traffic working for them.
Click to expand...
And in Florida, you very often find northerly headings to be odd, and southerly headings to be even -- the east/west rule rotated -90 degrees.

But not always, and not everywhere.
 
akpilot907 said:
So, i should still file for hemispherical rule, but if I needed to, I can file w/e above MEA/MOCA?? Odd/ or Even---?
Click to expand...

File for what's best for your aircraft. Obviously the MIA in controlled airspace but if you need to go against the hemispheric rule, so be it. ATC may or may not approve. Personally I always file for correct altitude for direction of flight.

Like I said biggest problem is when traffic picks up and you forget about some guy at the wrong altitude. Also, it has to be approved from the receiving controller taking the handoff. There were times I've been on position where it was so busy the receiving controller didn't even have time for a handoff with an aircraft at the correct altitude. You'll hear on the landline "keep him coming" or on rare ocassions "spin him". Definitely don't have time to be keying up the landline and getting an approval request out for wrong altitude. So it's traffic dependant.
 
Velocity173 said:
File for what's best for your aircraft. Obviously the MIA in controlled airspace but if you need to go against the hemispheric rule, so be it. ATC may or may not approve. Personally I always file for correct altitude for direction of flight.

Like I said biggest problem is when traffic picks up and you forget about some guy at the wrong altitude. Also, it has to be approved from the receiving controller taking the handoff. There were times I've been on position where it was so busy the receiving controller didn't even have time for a handoff with an aircraft at the correct altitude. You'll hear on the landline "keep him coming" or on rare ocassions "spin him". Definitely don't have time to be keying up the landline and getting an approval request out for wrong altitude. So it's traffic dependant.
Click to expand...

Thanks McFly,
From Biff.... (**Back to The Future refference) Couldn't resist
 
Common error. Most people think that.
91.179(a) says IFR in controled airspace "as assigned by ATC".
Nothing about radar, just "controlled airspace".

91.179(b) in uncontrolled airspace is where the even/odd rule applies.
 
nosehair said:
Common error. Most people think that.
91.179(a) says IFR in controled airspace "as assigned by ATC".
Nothing about radar, just "controlled airspace".

91.179(b) in uncontrolled airspace is where the even/odd rule applies.
Click to expand...
Correct. However, 7110.65 tells controllers to assign using the east-odd/west-even rule unless otherwise established by letter of agreement. Where there are zig-zags on north-south routes that would have us going up and down like yo-yo's, they establish such agreements between the ATC facilities involved. For example, V29 is north-odd/south-even by agreement of all the facilities from Wilkes-Barre PA though Harrisburg, Philly, Dover, down to Patuxent.

In any event, you can file/request whatever you want, but they're going to give you what they're going to give you. If you need to know in advance, call the ATC facility and ask what that will be.
 
Ron Levy said:
Correct. However, 7110.65 tells controllers to assign using the east-odd/west-even rule unless otherwise established by letter of agreement.
Click to expand...
Correct. However 7110.65 tells controllers what to do. Nosehair's essential point is that many pilots mistakenly believe the Part 91 IFR hemispheric rule applies to all IFR flights, when it only applies to IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

And, the lack of understanding of the difference between the Part 91 rules that apply to all IFR and those that apply only to IFR in controlled airspace is enough of a recurring theme to be worthy of noting.
 
Another place I routinely get assigned an altitude that breaks the rule is in the mountains. Given high MEA's, they will usually assign me the lowest altitude that works rather than make me climb another thousand for the hemispheric rule. I'd never ask for a final alt. that breaks the rule though.
 
From time to time when circumstances warrant it, I have filed or requested "wrong way" IFR altitudes and received them. An example, the wrong way altitude keeps me out of the icing conditions or turbulence or very unfavorable winds. In a rare case where I filed a flightplan using using 800 WXBRIEF I was challenged with the warning "wrong way for direction of flight". The briefer said it would not be accepted by the computer. I said, "humor me, enter it as I requested". He said after it accepted it, "Well its never done that before".

Of course, ATC uses wrong way altitudes anytime it is required for separation.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Another place I routinely get assigned an altitude that breaks the rule is in the mountains. Given high MEA's, they will usually assign me the lowest altitude that works rather than make me climb another thousand for the hemispheric rule. I'd never ask for a final alt. that breaks the rule though.
Click to expand...

The hemispheric rule doesn't kick in for VFR flight or IFR in class G airspace until 3000 AGL.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Correct. However 7110.65 tells controllers what to do. Nosehair's essential point is that many pilots mistakenly believe the Part 91 IFR hemispheric rule applies to all IFR flights, when it only applies to IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

And, the lack of understanding of the difference between the Part 91 rules that apply to all IFR and those that apply only to IFR in controlled airspace is enough of a recurring theme to be worthy of noting.
Click to expand...

I believe the FAA written test has this same lack of understanding. There are a few airway questions about what altitudes you can fly at, and I seem to recall that direction of flight was important.
 
John Collins said:
The hemispheric rule doesn't kick in for VFR flight or IFR in class G airspace until 3000 AGL.
Click to expand...

Negative. Relief from the hemispheric rule within 3000 feet of the surface applies only to VFR operations.
 
roncachamp said:
Negative. Relief from the hemispheric rule within 3000 feet of the surface applies only to VFR operations.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I posted a reply saying the same thing earlier, then deleted it because the original post had disappeared. I assumed John had caught the error and deleted the post to replace it with a corrected version, but here it is again. Weird. :dunno:
 
IFR is simple. File what you want that's legal, fly what you get, unless it's causing you a problem or conditions warrant a change. :)
 
I've also been known to ask for a "wrong" altitude for various reasons. Example: need to be above icing, but want to stay as low as possible because of passengers. So go east at 10k.
 
I request block altitudes whenever the WAFDOF offers me a significant benefit and occasionally ask for a hard altitude in the same scenario. Typically I find that WAFDOF isn't much of a problem on route that's fairly close to N/S.
 
Keep in mind if you're at a "wrong" altitude and some VFR nails ya, it's your own stupidity that contributed to that outcome. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Keep in mind if you're at a "wrong" altitude and some VFR nails ya, it's your own stupidity that contributed to that outcome. ;)
Click to expand...

Where's the stupidity? An IFR altitude that is wrong for direction is not a VFR altitude
 
roncachamp said:
Where's the stupidity? An IFR altitude that is wrong for direction is not a VFR altitude
Click to expand...


I was gunna say... Thanks for beating me to the punch! Because VFR and IFR traffic are separated by at least 500ft if one aircraft is IFR and the other is VFR traveling head on....
 
akpilot907 said:
I was gunna say... Thanks for beating me to the punch! Because VFR and IFR traffic are separated by at least 500ft if one aircraft is IFR and the other is VFR traveling head on....
Click to expand...

Perhaps. ;)

Point being, look outside if it's not IMC. Nobody but the lawyers will care what altitude your were at after you're dead.
 
denverpilot said:
Perhaps. ;)

Point being, look outside if it's not IMC. Nobody but the lawyers will care what altitude your were at after you're dead.
Click to expand...

What about you VFR bozos who didn't bother to get your pitot-stat systems checked? ;)

And besides, if IFR you are always supposed to be looking out the window if in VMC.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
What about you VFR bozos who didn't bother to get your pitot-stat systems checked? ;)

And besides, if IFR you are always supposed to be looking out the window if in VMC.
Click to expand...

Yup. Mines checked, of course. But yup.

And your second point was the same as mine. ;)

And everyone flies around straight and level everywhere, and you'd never bit hit by someone doing a vertical downline in their RV. ;)
 
nosehair said:
Common error. Most people think that.
91.179(a) says IFR in controled airspace "as assigned by ATC".
Nothing about radar, just "controlled airspace".

91.179(b) in uncontrolled airspace is where the even/odd rule applies.
Click to expand...

...and that regulation makes about as much sense as a football bat.

(b) In uncontrolled airspace. Except while in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under IFR in level cruising flight in uncontrolled airspace shall maintain an appropriate altitude as follows: (1) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and—
(i) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude (such as 3,000, 5,000, or 7,000); or
(ii) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude (such as 2,000, 4,000, or 6,000).
(2) When operating at or above 18,000 feet MSL but below flight level 290, and—
(i) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd flight level (such as 190, 210, or 230); or
(ii) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even flight level (such as 180, 200, or 220).
(3) When operating at flight level 290 and above in non-RVSM airspace, and—
(i) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any flight level, at 4,000-foot intervals, beginning at and including flight level 290 (such as flight level 290, 330, or 370); or
(ii) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any flight level, at 4,000-foot intervals, beginning at and including flight level 310 (such as flight level 310, 350, or 390).
(4) When operating at flight level 290 and above in airspace designated as Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum (RVSM) airspace and—
(i) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd flight level, at 2,000-foot intervals beginning at and including flight level 290 (such as flight level 290, 310, 330, 350, 370, 390, 410); or
(ii) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even flight level, at 2000-foot intervals beginning at and including flight level 300 (such as 300, 320, 340, 360, 380, 400).


Since everything from FL180-FL600, this is a pretty big contradiction (although (4) could be applicable to the airspace above FL600)
 
FAR 71.33(b) In Alaska, Mt. Mckinley sticks up into class A to about 29,000.
Class A starts at 1500 above the surface.
And does not include some area west on the Alaska peninsula.
And some other stuff ...
 
nosehair said:
FAR 71.33(b) In Alaska, Mt. Mckinley sticks up into class A to about 29,000.
Class A starts at 1500 above the surface.
And does not include some area west on the Alaska peninsula.
And some other stuff ...
Click to expand...
Hawaii has airspace that's not Class A above 18,000. There's even some US airspace that gets pretty close if not above 18,000'

I guess some things don't make sense if you don't have the knowledge that makes it make sense (not a flame; just a fact of life)
 
midlifeflyer said:
Hawaii has airspace that's not Class A above 18,000. There's even some US airspace that gets pretty close if not above 18,000'

I guess some things don't make sense if you don't have the knowledge that makes it make sense (not a flame; just a fact of life)
Click to expand...

I know that a lot of glider pilots have certain window times where they open up the class A airspace for glider pilots.. Called like open skies or something
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top