If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic pattern, can you circle l

[wsuffa]

Re: IFR Oral gotcha questions

Please post some possible gotcha questions for the IFR oral. The obvious questions are covered in many texts, but how about those ones that stumped you on your practical? CFIIs, what questions did your students tell you about that surprised you? Help me prepare for the oral!

My DE asked me today (not part of the Commercial Exam) the following:

"If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic pattern, can you circle left to landing?"

COrrect answer is? And the FAR/interpertation reference???

 

[spiderweb]

Re: IFR Oral gotcha questions

My DE asked me today (not part of the Commercial Exam) the following:

"If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic pattern, can you circle left to landing?"

COrrect answer is? And the FAR/interpertation reference???

I don't have a FAR with me at the office, but I'd say that you can circle however you want except for any restrictions listed on the plate. Am I right?

 

[bbchien]

Re: IFR Oral gotcha questions

I don't have a FAR with me at the office, but I'd say that you can circle however you want except for any restrictions listed on the plate. Am I right?

5-4-19f(1) Maneuver the shortest path to the base or downwind leg, as appropriate, considering existing weather conditions. There is no restriction from passing over the airport or other runways. (2) It should be recognized that circling maneuvers may be made while VFR or other flying is in progress at the airport. Standard left turns or specific instruction from the controller for maneuvering must be considred when circling to land. ("must be considered" I don't think is a prohibition....)

Ed will chime in here, but I think the nitty gritty correct answer to the failed navaid is fly at max climb to the estimated MAP (which may or may not included flying somewhat toward the runway, but you certainly can't descend any more). Fly to the estimated MAP which would be a climbing left standard rate turn until you get to radar coverage. I think you need to say, that the approach IS TERMINATED when the flag comes up and you haven't got the runway. Timing, good.....but the approach is OVER.

If you plan an approach with a substitute GPS fix (substituted GPS for DME) or a GPS approach as primary, the alternate has to be a navigable without any GPS help. Standard minima apply (600/2, 800/2), as does the exclusion (1 hr prior 1 hr after, 2000 and 3).

 

[wsuffa]

Re: IFR Oral gotcha questions

I don't have a FAR with me at the office, but I'd say that you can circle however you want except for any restrictions listed on the plate. Am I right?

Bruce quoted the correct AIM section. The examiner believes that it's regulatory to fly the specified traffic pattern at the airport (left turns standard). But he also knows that there are exceptions where the only approach is a circling approach because it doesn't meet straight-in criteria (I guess technically you're joining the final or base leg). And that there may be cases where the chart prohibition ("no circling west of runway X") may conflict with the standard traffic pattern.

My task is to do a bit more research and see if there is a more definitive answer.

 

[bbchien]

Re: IFR Oral gotcha questions

Without a written reference, my FSDO guy told me a few years ago (2001?!!) that for part 105 airports with no commercial service, the pattern is advisory, not regulatory. It's see and avoid. PERIOD. For airports in class E with commercial service, no tower, it's regulatory. But the question was "with reference" and the only one I can easily find.....waffles.

 

[wsuffa]

Re: IFR Oral gotcha questions

Without a written reference, my FSDO guy told me a few years ago (2001?!!) that for part 105 airports with no commercial service, the pattern is advisory, not regulatory. It's see and avoid. PERIOD. For airports in class E with commercial service, no tower, it's regulatory. But the question was "with reference" and the only one I can easily find.....waffles.

I think maybe I'll start a separate thread on this.

I don't think there is any differentiation for airports based on commercial service - that would be spelled out in Part 91. I suspect that there is something in ops-specs that might regulate the commercial carriers.

The phrase you quoted is the only clear reference in either the FAR's or AIM to circling approaches. The traffic pattern is mandatory under Part 91.126 for class G, but is only mandatory for departures in Class E airspace. Having said that, the FAA's Instrument Training Handbook describes left and right arrival patterns on circling approaches, and the Trevor Thom ASA book indicates that the direction is not mandatory for circling approaches.

I'll excerpt parts of Charlie's email to me and a couple of sites he pointed me to. He's interested in learing a definitive answer (with the appropriate references). I see a new checkride question coming.....

Chuck/BA is it possible to move the portion of this thread about this one question to another string, or should I just start a new one???

bill

 

[Greebo]

Re: IFR Oral gotcha questions

We can split - let me figure out which ones get split...

 

[Greebo]

I think thats got them all.

 

[wsuffa]

I think you did get it Chuck.

I am interested in the reference below to the Alaska Airlines case, whether it was based on a particular rule section or the "Reckless and Careless" provision. Maybe Stacey or Ron can point to a copy of the case online. I'm also interested in the reaction of others to the provisions of Part 91 as they refer to mandatory following of traffic patterns in Class G airspace, and whether there is a conflict of that provision to Pages 10-20 and 10-21 of the most recent Instrument Flying Handbook (available as a .PDF online) - probably not, as the IFH does not override P. 91, nor does is explicitly say you can circle opposite. That being the case, do we have a good reference or case law to clearly establish regulation here.

Here's the pertinant portions of Charlie's email to me:
------------------------------

(From Charlie Mcdougal)
"Also you might want to browse Justin Moore’s www.noticetoairmen.com . I think somewhere in there is some discussion of the circling issue. I think the reason that many pilots feel that they can circle in any direction is because they have grown into the perception that they are operating in the traffic pattern under IFR. Actually there are no FARs that I know of that address separate rules for IFR traffic in VMC in class G airspace, ie we don’t have right of way over VFR traffic just because we are IFR; so once we are in the pattern or circling or whatever we are still required to sequence with the VFR guys. As Brad mentioned, there was a case in Alaska where two Alaska airlines pilots (B737 I think) were suspended for 30 days in just such a case. They were on a dog leg base to final that was opposite from the normal traffic flow (maybe a right base on a runway with left traffic). They conflicted with a twin Cessna that was on a correct base leg and I guess the Cessna had to alter course or something. The Alaska airlines pilots claimed they were on a straight in approach, but the FAA and the NTSB disagreed. So there is some official precedent to this issue which was first brought to my attention by Harold “Dutch” Zwiefel, a now retired examiner who was teaching pilots to fly DC3’s prior to WWll."
-----------------------

Charlie explicitly discussed with me the VOR OR GPS-A to Kerrville. If you examine the approach, you will note that you will effectively be positioned on a right base for landing Runway 12, but the traffic pattern is left traffic. Runway 12 at Kerrville is the primary runway (longer, recently lengthened, and nonprecision instrument markings) vs Rwy 03 with basic markings. So, would you go ahead and land with a single right turn on the circling approach, or would you fly the entire left traffic pattern at circling altitude to land at the airport?

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/05690VGA.PDF

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Oh, yeah. Another great procedure design versus the traffic pattern debate. You get "circling not authorized" notes on charts because of lack of lighting on things that stick up and bust ROC, or where there is terrain, or lighting is not observable from points in the traffic pattern such as downwind, or base. The point of a SIAP is to get you into visual conditions to a point where you can make a landing from published mins. Local traffic pattern flow is not a player because it can, and does, change like the wind. The problems occur when airplanes flying approaches coming out of IMC are sharing the same airspace with airplanes VFR operating in VMC.

 

[wsuffa]

Oh, yeah. Another great procedure design versus the traffic pattern debate. You get "circling not authorized" notes on charts because of lack of lighting on things that stick up and bust ROC, or where there is terrain, or lighting is not observable from points in the traffic pattern such as downwind, or base. The point of a SIAP is to get you into visual conditions to a point where you can make a landing from published mins. Local traffic pattern flow is not a player because it can, and does, change like the wind. The problems occur when airplanes flying approaches coming out of IMC are sharing the same airspace with airplanes VFR operating in VMC.

JR,

I agree. But can you point to an actual regulatory basis to back that up?

No one said this would be easy...

bill

 

[bbchien]

JR,I agree. But can you point to an actual regulatory basis to back that up? No one said this would be easy... bill

When the FAA leaves something deliberately Vague there is a reason. The moral is, if there's nobody out there, and the shag is bad enough that you might lose the field, I choose right traffic at ERV. I've done that. I used to own a Mooney. That's "as approrpiate" per the AIM.

But if you have a practicable other choice, you do that instead. It falls in the category "pilot judgement".

BTW this was a great oral exam stumper and Bill Suffa wins the prize (whatever that is...)!

 

[wsuffa]

Now, Bruce, I just need to convince the DE of that

Here was his email response to my comments along the lines of that above:

Time to (shudder) look a the TERPS manual & see if it has any references. I really would perfer not ratteling the Regional Counsel right yet.

(From Charlie)
---------------------------------------------
Thanks for the link and discussion about the circle thing. I do know that there are many references out there that overtly condone or perhaps just suggest that it is OK to circle in conflict with the traffic pattern. The real issue is what is written in the FAR. The AIM is not regulatory, neither is Trevor Thoms book or any other source except the FAR.



91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.



91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.
(a) Unless otherwise required by part 93 of this chapter or unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class E airspace area, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class E airspace area must comply with the requirements of §91.126.
(b) Departures. Each pilot of an aircraft must comply with any traffic patterns established for that airport in part 93 of this chapter.

Since I am only an examiner now, I do not spend as much time dissecting regs as I used to. There may be some other reference but I don’t know about it. The way I understand it, this is the only regulatory guidance on the matter. I can think of several situations where I would circle opposite for safety of flight reasons, I would be illegal doing so however, and would be open to violation, suspension, and/or civil prosecution if push came to shove. Old Dutch was a real character (still is) When someone would speak of interpreting a regulation, he would remind us that there is no “interpretation” of regulations. You just do what they say. If you don’t understand what they say, then keep reading until it makes sense, which it eventually will.

Regards

Charlie

 

[wsuffa]

When the FAA leaves something deliberately Vague there is a reason. The moral is, if there's nobody out there, and the shag is bad enough that you might lose the field, I choose right traffic at ERV. I've done that. I used to own a Mooney. That's "as approrpiate" per the AIM.

But if you have a practicable other choice, you do that instead. It falls in the category "pilot judgement".

BTW this was a great oral exam stumper and Bill Suffa wins the prize (whatever that is...)!

Bruce, Charlie contends it isn't vague. He claims that 91.126 is definitive, and there is no exception for IFR.

That, then, is the issue.

 

[spiderweb]

I do not find anything in this excerpt which says that one is required to fly the traffic pattern, only that all turns must be to the left (unless otherwise indicated or required).

91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.



91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.
(a) Unless otherwise required by part 93 of this chapter or unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class E airspace area, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class E airspace area must comply with the requirements of §91.126.
(b) Departures. Each pilot of an aircraft must comply with any traffic patterns established for that airport in part 93 of this chapter.

 

[bbchien]

That, then, is the issue.

The answer for the DPE is circle left. But Charlie gave the practical answer, as did I. "What is appropriate" is certainly encompasses in the "the shag is low enough you might lose the field circling left, it's so low that there is no VFR traffic, this is podunk, there's no radar service, the airspace has been closed becuase you alone are in it, circle with right turns, there's nobody to violate you and you land safely. That was "Appropriate". 5-4-19f is not regulatory. But it is how the FAA has testified for the record. As nobody saw you there was "no violation." Just, good judgement.

Kinda like the tree fell with nobody around so was there sound?

 

[Everskyward]

Re: If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic patter

Here is an example for you. Under normal circumstances EGE uses left traffic for 25 and right traffic for 7. However, the notes for this approach are, "circling not authorized south of Rwy 7-25 for Cat C and D at night" (for good reason). Therefore you would be making right traffic to 25, opposite of the normal traffic pattern.

EGE has a tower but it's only part-time.

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0502/06403LDC.PDF

 

[wsuffa]

The answer for the DPE is circle left. But Charlie gave the practical answer, as did I. "What is appropriate" is certainly encompasses in the "the shag is low enough you might lose the field circling left, it's so low that there is no VFR traffic, this is podunk, there's no radar service, the airspace has been closed becuase you alone are in it, circle with right turns, there's nobody to violate you and you land safely. That was "Appropriate". 5-4-19f is not regulatory. But it is how the FAA has testified for the record. As nobody saw you there was "no violation." Just, good judgement.

Kinda like the tree fell with nobody around so was there sound?

I agree Bruce, and it's exactly how I answered him. Charlie is the DPE, and he's looking for the regulatory answer. He's offered to send me the Alaska Airlines decision when he finds it. I want to see if they were violated on this section or on 91.13 (careless and wreckless).

My answer is that it's covered in the "when required or otherwise authorized".

Charlie's concern is that Joe Piper Cub will be putting around the pattern in Class G airspace (rural area, 700' where Class E starts, so you're in Class G and the ground clearance need only be 500' and the rules call 1 SM, clear of clouds).

I'm really looking for a reference or a decision to support a "PIC judgement" decision to take the base entry in opposite direction to the established pattern, which is exactly what I'd do unless it were good VFR ceilings and I could join the pattern.

There may not be one, in which case it becomes an interesting question for Charlie to ask as a DPE to candidates....

Ben, take note.

I do like having these theoretical discussions with the DPE, especially since they're both on an intellectual level.

Don't mean to come across as "****y" at all, folks, just trying to muster my arguments with regulatory support...

bill

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: IFR Oral gotcha questions

Based on the AIM, and special restriction notes on the approach chart or in the A/FD notwithstanding...

I'd say that if the weather is good enough to fly the regular pattern, you should join it and fly it. If not, you do what you have to do to get on the ground since if it's IMC, there shouldn't be any other planes in the pattern.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic patter

But the problem at EGE is that if you are flying a Category C or D airplane the minimums are above basic VFR (2605 and 3) so there could conceivably be someone else in the pattern. Also, the terrain is hard to see in the dark so even in relatively good weather I don't think it's a good idea to be circling on the unprotected side (if you've flown left traffic to 25 in the daytime you can see why), not to mention that the approach notes say that it's not authorized.

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0502/06403LDC.PDF

 

[bbchien]

Re: If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic patter

But the problem at EGE is that if you are flying a Category C or D airplane the minimums are above basic VFR (2605 and 3) so there could conceivably be someone else in the pattern. Also, the terrain is hard to see in the dark so even in relatively good weather I don't think it's a good idea to be circling on the unprotected side (if you've flown left traffic to 25 in the daytime you can see why), not to mention that the approach notes say that it's not authorized.

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0502/06403LDC.PDF

Flown into Eagle many times, at night (go there when the guy in front of you at ASE misses). Don't be circling at night. There's significant granite to the west, southwest and the north. When the guy in front of you misses at ASE (usu a fractional) they consult with their "Boss" in the back (Gulfstream 24Delta, what are you intentions?). Meanwhile I'm asking for SNX and they're too far behind me....

 

[Everskyward]

Re: If you are shooting a circling approach...

But the question wasn't about whether you should be circling at night or not. It just had to do with the direction of the circle vs. the direction of the pattern. I was pointing out that you probably shouldn't disregard the notes because it happens to be VFR and the weather is decent.

I agree with you though. Be really careful in the mountains. Definitely don't circle south at EGE even if the normal pattern is there.

I think the best thing you can do here and at other airports with significant terrain is shoot the approaches in good conditions first so you can get an appreciation for what you don't want to hit.

 

[John J]

In circling approaches, t is the shortest route to the runway from the break out point as I was taught. My instructor always stressed treating each circling approach on it's own merits in flying it. He always would say sometimes it is better to take the long way around to land. For example I had a very interesting circling approach that if I had taken the shortest route I would have ended up back in the soup. The bases of the ceiling were very ragged and I had to take the long way around. I find that each one I have to be ready to adopt to the local issues on weather, obstructions, Local traffic etc. If I feel it is not comfortable I fly on to an airport that has more options. I never do them at night. Too much going on when single pilot IFR.

John J

 

[jdwatson]

Haven't the GPS rules changed some with advent of WAAS approaches. I read that the non-GPS alternate rule may/has change(d) in that WAAS approaches would be legal alternatives.

 

[poadeleted20]

Haven't the GPS rules changed some with advent of WAAS approaches. I read that the non-GPS alternate rule may/has change(d) in that WAAS approaches would be legal alternatives.

I've seen nothing in the AIM or any other official publication to this effect.

 

[gismo]

Re: If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic patter

I've seen nothing in the AIM or any other official publication to this effect.

I'm pretty sure I read the same thing (WAAS makes GPS alternates OK), but I don't remember where.

 

[wsuffa]

Re: If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic patter

I'm pretty sure I read the same thing (WAAS makes GPS alternates OK), but I don't remember where.

Not completely true, Lance. Here's the current AIM section (I believe that most of our units are classified TSO-C129/129A):

-------------------------
(8) For TSO-C129/129A users, any required alternate airport must still have an approved instrument approach procedure other than GPS that is anticipated to be operational and available at the estimated time of arrival, and which the aircraft is equipped to fly. If the non-GPS approaches on which the pilot must rely require DME or ADF, the aircraft must be equipped with DME or ADF avionics as appropriate.

NOTE-
Coincident with WAAS commissioning, the FAA will begin removing the NA (Alternate Minimums Not Authorized) symbol from select RNAV (GPS) and GPS approach procedures so they may be used by approach approved WAAS receivers at alternate airports. This does not change the above alternate airport requirements for users of GPS TSO-C129/129A, Airborne Supplemental Navigation Equipment Using the Global Positioning System (GPS), receivers.

--------------------------

 

[gismo]

Re: If you are shooting a circling approach at an airport with a right traffic patter

Not completely true, Lance. Here's the current AIM section (I believe that most of our units are classified TSO-C129/129A):

-------------------------
(8) For TSO-C129/129A users, any required alternate airport must still have an approved instrument approach procedure other than GPS that is anticipated to be operational and available at the estimated time of arrival, and which the aircraft is equipped to fly. If the non-GPS approaches on which the pilot must rely require DME or ADF, the aircraft must be equipped with DME or ADF avionics as appropriate.

NOTE-
Coincident with WAAS commissioning, the FAA will begin removing the NA (Alternate Minimums Not Authorized) symbol from select RNAV (GPS) and GPS approach procedures so they may be used by approach approved WAAS receivers at alternate airports. This does not change the above alternate airport requirements for users of GPS TSO-C129/129A, Airborne Supplemental Navigation Equipment Using the Global Positioning System (GPS), receivers.

--------------------------

The WAAS IFR GPS's (GNS-480 is the only stand alone one I know of) are certified under TSO C-146 not C129. I'm pretty sure what I read was in relation to a C-146 certified unit.