If I HAD to buy a Tail dragger?

Fearless Tower said:
I suppose that’s one way to look at it, but honestly, if you are that worried about wrecking it on an insurance checkout, you aren’t ready to step up in the first place.
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Ya gotta get the time some how. most insurance companies won't insure your aircraft until the magic number of hours of time in make and model has been reached.
So it is advantageous to get that time in an aircraft that does have insurance.
 
Tom-D said:
Ya gotta get the time some how. most insurance companies won't insure your aircraft until the magic number of hours of time in make and model has been reached.
So it is advantageous to get that time in an aircraft that does have insurance.
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Insurance doesn’t work that way.

You likely will need X amount of time make/model and maybe a CFI sing-off to SOLO the airplane, but not to have it covered by insurance when you buy it.

You just need to ensure that the CFI meets the policy requirements.

So if it costs say $200/hour to operate a 195 (which is fairly conservative since you can rent a Stearman or Waco for around $200/hour) and the CFI rate is $50-75 per hour, why would you want to pay this guy $500/hour to fly his airplane????
 
Fearless Tower said:
Insurance doesn’t work that way.


So if it costs say $200/hour to operate a 195 (which is fairly conservative since you can rent a Stearman or Waco for around $200/hour) and the CFI rate is $50-75 per hour, why would you want to pay this guy $500/hour to fly his airplane????
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Because he or she are the only ones that will do it?
 
Plano Pilot said:
Because he or she are the only ones that will do it?
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Not likely. And while I’m sure ‘someone’ ‘knows someone’ who will only do that but let’s face it; it is extremely rare to find a CFI who would insist on only providing instruction in their own airplane and refusing to fly in the students if anything for the same reason Tom originally suggested: why risk their own baby for flight training.
 
It would be extremely rare to find a CFI today the is proficient in 195.
 
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Tom-D said:
It would be extremely rare to find a CFI today the is proficient in 195.
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Easier than a Waco UBF2 (only 20 were ever made) and I never had a problem finding a CFI to give me dual in my airplane....
 
Fearless Tower said:
Easier than a Waco UBF2 (only 20 were ever made) and I never had a problem finding a CFI to give me dual in my airplane....
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You must set the bar too low. :) I wouldn't allow any newbi CFI north of Seattle in my 170.
 
yakdriver said:
FT, I know you have flown so many types the insurance companies just tell you to get in and go.
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Not quite, but I’m working on it.

But seriously, when I bought my Waco I had less than 700 TT and less than 100 hours TW and had never flown a biplane.

I needed a set number of hours dual and a signoff with a qualified CFI and nobody was going to offer dual in their F2.
 
I figured you had more time than that. I have over 3000hrs, 2000 TW in over 120 types and insurance hasn't required any dual in most of the single engine airplanes I have checked out in the last 10 or 15 years. Not that I don't take advantage if there is an experienced pilot in type to get some dual. I'm always still learning. One of these days I would like to meet up and fly your Waco. I'll trade you some N3N time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not likely. And while I’m sure ‘someone’ ‘knows someone’ who will only do that but let’s face it; it is extremely rare to find a CFI who would insist on only providing instruction in their own airplane and refusing to fly in the students if anything for the same reason Tom originally suggested: why risk their own baby for flight training.
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I was talking about where are you going to rent a C195?
 
195 is no more special than any other tail dragger. If someone called me wanting a checkout in one - I’d be comfortable doing so though I’d want to do a few laps around the pattern before I put a student on the controls.

No different than all the other types that I’ve done insurance required training in that I’ve never flew prior to starting their training. Just a matter of reading the POH/OH first to get up to speed on the systems.

Haven’t even scratched paint.
 
jesse said:
195 is no more special than any other tail dragger. If someone called me wanting a checkout in one - I’d be comfortable doing so though I’d want to do a few laps around the pattern before I put a student on the controls.

No different than all the other types that I’ve done insurance required training in that I’ve never flew prior to starting their training. Just a matter of reading the POH/OH first to get up to speed on the systems.

Haven’t even scratched paint.
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You might be comfortable doing that but chances are you won't be insurable without a couple of hundred hours of 195 time. The problem in the 195 community was finding qualified instructors to do checkouts. As far as I know, there are two people that the 195 club recommends for checkouts.
 
Don't CFIs require 5 hours in make and model before they can instruct?
 
5 hour rule only applies to multi engine, and even then that's only for training for a rating. You could give a flight review in a twin in which you have zero time
 
195's are pure sexy, and my favorite airplane, you just have to learn to fly it like any taildragger.

It is not hard to land if you know where to look down the cowl and know how to use your feet and keep it straight.

I go to OSH every year and dream of buying a 195, but my C170B is fun, even has the same round tail as a 195 and meets my needs.

If you want a tail dragger consider the 170, not a rocket ship but so smooth to fly.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You might be comfortable doing that but chances are you won't be insurable without a couple of hundred hours of 195 time. The problem in the 195 community was finding qualified instructors to do checkouts. As far as I know, there are two people that the 195 club recommends for checkouts.
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Possibly so. But it wouldn't be the first time that didn't matter. I've had more than one case where I just gave all the dual the person needed until I thought that were competent. Then they just flew it until they reached the PIC time needed to bind the policy without training requirements. Not really ideal, but legal, and everyone has different risk comfort levels. I am comfortable with the risk so if that's how the owner wants to roll then that's what we do.

I've also done checkouts in aircraft where the owner has no intention of ever insuring it. Might seem crazy but it's more common than I would have ever imagined.

Additionally like anything in life I've found insurance requirements to be negotiable. One technique that has worked was to submit a structured formal training program to the underwriter with a request for them to reconsider.
 
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jesse said:
Possibly so. But it wouldn't be the first time that didn't matter. I've had more than one case where I just gave all the dual the person needed until I thought that were competent. Then they just flew it until they reached the PIC time needed to bind the policy without training requirements. Not really ideal, but legal, and everyone has different risk comfort levels. I am comfortable with the risk so if that's how the owner wants to roll then that's what we do.

I've also done checkouts in aircraft where the owner has no intention of ever insuring it. Might seem crazy but it's more common than I would have ever imagined.

Additionally like anything in life I've found insurance requirements to be negotiable. One technique that has worked was to submit a structured formal training program to the underwriter with a request for them to reconsider.
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What's safe, isn't always legal, What's legal isn't always safe.

I know a lot of pilots that simply got checked out by sold geezer that new how to fly the beast.
 
jesse said:
I've also done checkouts in aircraft where the owner has no intention of ever insuring it. Might seem crazy but it's more common than I would have ever imagined..
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Had that with a former student who just pass his PPC. Bought a Maule and didn't have it insured. Said he'd be sad if he crashed it (he came close) but oh well...
 
strangebird said:
If you want a tail dragger consider the 170, not a rocket ship but so smooth to fly.
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I agree. 170s are fun to fly, economical and there are tons of parts. However, they are getting very hard to find. I'm halfway interested in selling my 140, but finding the right 170 to replace it hasn't happened yet. I also have two friends looking for 170s. They tend to sell in a few days if they're good and I've even seen them sell the same day they're listed.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I agree. 170s are fun to fly, economical and there are tons of parts. However, they are getting very hard to find. I'm halfway interested in selling my 140, but finding the right 170 to replace it hasn't happened yet. I also have two friends looking for 170s. They tend to sell in a few days if they're good and I've even seen them sell the same day they're listed.
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PM me. I have a rag wing for sale if anyone is interested.
 
Being based in Guam for the next few years, can't really justify keeping it. What's next? Dunno. Maybe a flying club with an Archer and Saratoga.
 
I especially like 195's when other people own them. Just polishing one of those things is more work than I care to think about.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
A good quality paint job solves that problem.
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Polished aircraft are pretty and will always take the trophy over a painted aircraft. Keeping them shiny is easier than trying to get them shiny again. :)
 
All depends on if you have a sensible insurance company.

When I got my amphib, which has much more risk than a 195, I needed X hours dual, got to be a pain to find a qualified CFI, I called up the insurance company and they agreed I could log some time with the old owner, who was just a VFR PPL, saved me money and time, same outcome
 
James331 said:
All depends on if you have a sensible insurance company.

When I got my amphib, which has much more risk than a 195, I needed X hours dual, got to be a pain to find a qualified CFI, I called up the insurance company and they agreed I could log some time with the old owner, who was just a VFR PPL, saved me money and time, same outcome
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I learned by happenstance that if you log some hours before you apply for the insurance they waive a lot of the restrictions. I flew safety pilot in a new plane and logged 10 hours and the insurance gave me zero requirements to be added to the policy as a fairly low hours pilot, but on the plane I had zero hours logged, same company required 5 hours of dual, and 10 hours of solo.
 
I have been allowed to give insurance checkouts in the RV6,7,8,10 and 12, Pitts S2B and the N3N and I'm just a PP.
 
When my brother bought his PT-26 a few years back, he had never flown one nor any PT-19/PT-23. Despite a couple thousand hours of t/w time and a few hundred is Stearmans, insurance required a one hour check out before he would be covered. As there was no CFI nearby with time in one who could do a check out and I had time in a PT-26 and PT-23 and was approved to be his check pilot though I'm not a CFI.

When he bought his Pitts (after selling the PT-26) a few years later, neither of us had any Pitts time despite both having time in Stearman, Skybolt, Starduster Too and many other t/w a/c. They waived his check out. I flew his Pitts and another one belonging to a friend and had 8-9 hours in them. When he asked insurance to put me on insurance, they told him not until I had 15 hours in Pitts. I flew a few more times without coverage and was covered once I hit 15 hours. He is now on his third Pitts...which I'm waiting to fly once the weather improves. It will be my fourth S1S Pitts to fly. :D
 
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