Idle question: Why aren't minimum standards acceptable?

Bob Noel

Bob Noel

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Bob Noel
If we shouldn't accept minimum acceptable standards, then why are they called "minimum acceptable standards"?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the POA catch phrase is "never accept minimum standards" therefore, it follows that there are in fact a set of "minimum acceptable standards" which would be obviously higher than "minimum standards."
 
You guys do know what they call the guy that graduates at the bottom of his class in medical school?




Doctor
 
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Minimum standards are what you set for other people. If you accept them for your self, then you are admitting that you are barely acceptable.
 
No no see we need really high standards on the stuff I excel at, and pilots that can't reach my level on those tasks should ridiculed and scorned. Minimum standards are OK on the tasks I'm less adapt at and we won't discuss it any further.:wink2::rofl:
 
Sleepingsquirrel said:
You guys do know what they call the guy that graduates at the bottem of his class in medical school?




Doctor
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Or "defendant."

That old saw is both wrong and misguided. Minimum standards are just that -- minimum.

There is a vast difference between "acceptable" and "good." And if something is worth doing, it's worth doing well.
 
Bob Noel said:
If we shouldn't accept minimum acceptable standards, then why are they called "minimum acceptable standards"?
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Because we have to have some way of determining the bottom line of acceptable standards for liability. We are a 'lowest common denominator' society where 'everybody is given opportunity'. In industries where you get to kill a bunch of people, they make you prove you minimum capability so they can hold you liable to those standards.
 
Minimum standards are not neccessarily low, they are just minimum standards.

In the case of the FAA's for any Airman ratings, the PTSs are good to start with, then maintain or better yet, improve on those skills on our own, if able.
 
Why? Who decided whether it was worth doing in the first place? Any written score higher than 70 means you wasted time studying.

The term "close enough for gub'mint work" didn't just appear out of the ether.
MAKG1 said:
Or "defendant."

That old saw is both wrong and misguided. Minimum standards are just that -- minimum.

There is a vast difference between "acceptable" and "good." And if something is worth doing, it's worth doing well.
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wabower said:
Why? Who decided whether it was worth doing in the first place? Any written score higher than 70 means you wasted time studying.

The term "close enough for gub'mint work" didn't just appear out of the ether.
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Why? Who?
Pilots should be flying for the noblest of all reasons: Because it is cool.

Any material on the written over 70 that was missed must be made up one on one with the instructor yielding an effective 100% before checkride.
 
wabower said:
The term "close enough for gub'mint work" didn't just appear out of the ether.
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It also didn't appear out of government.

I've only heard it (excepting jokes) from people who have no connection nor understanding about what government work is or how it works.
 
And so? It will all get done one way or the other. Anybody who can't score high 90's when they have all the test questions probably shouldn't be allowed out of the house unaccompanied, let along permitted to fly an airplane.

Dave Krall CFII said:
Why? Who?
Pilots should be flying for the noblest of all reasons: Because it is cool.

Any material on the written over 70 that was missed must be made up one on one with the instructor yielding an effective 100% before checkride.
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That may be one of the funniest posts ever typed.


MAKG1 said:
It also didn't appear out of government.

I've only heard it (excepting jokes) from people who have no connection nor understanding about what government work is or how it works.
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wabower said:
And so? It will all get done one way or the other. Anybody who can't score high 90's when they have all the test questions probably shouldn't be allowed out of the house unaccompanied, let along permitted to fly an airplane.
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Why only high 90s? They have all the questions.
Sometimes I'll just take a test to see how much I really need to study.
The main point is to get the material one way or another.

I'm not sure what you're getting at....
 
government WORK, how government WORKS, two oxymorons in a row
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Why only high 90s? They have all the questions.
Sometimes I'll just take a test to see how much I really need to study.
The main point is to get the material one way or another.

I'm not sure what you're getting at....
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in general, the purpose and end of studying for a written test is to pass the written test. It may be viewed as a stand-alone activity with nothing to follow.
 
wabower said:
And so? It will all get done one way or the other. Anybody who can't score high 90's when they have all the test questions probably shouldn't be allowed out of the house unaccompanied, let along permitted to fly an airplane.
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Wayne, you'll like this one. Start of this year I went to a renew my pesticide applicators permit in a neighboring state. County extension agent tells me they no longer administer a test, they just require you to read a pamphlet. She hands me the pamphlet and I say thank you very much and start to leave. She stops me and says "you don't understand, you have to read the pamphlet. I have to watch you read it." I say ooookaaay should I read it out loud so you can be sure I'm actually reading it? She rolls her eyes and tells me to stand there and pretend to read while she types up my license.
 
Your tax dollars at work;)

JHW said:
Wayne, you'll like this one. Start of this year I went to a renew my pesticide applicators permit in a neighboring state. County extension agent tells me they no longer administer a test, they just require you to read a pamphlet. She hands me the pamphlet and I say thank you very much and start to leave. She stops me and says "you don't understand, you have to read the pamphlet. I have to watch you read it." I say ooookaaay should I read it out loud so you can be sure I'm actually reading it? She rolls her eyes and tells me to stand there and pretend to read while she types up my license.
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JHW said:
Wayne, you'll like this one. Start of this year I went to a renew my pesticide applicators permit in a neighboring state. County extension agent tells me they no longer administer a test, they just require you to read a pamphlet. She hands me the pamphlet and I say thank you very much and start to leave. She stops me and says "you don't understand, you have to read the pamphlet. I have to watch you read it." I say ooookaaay should I read it out loud so you can be sure I'm actually reading it? She rolls her eyes and tells me to stand there and pretend to read while she types up my license.
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How the checkride should go:
"Hi, I'm the FAA examiner. Why don't we start by having you read the checklist for your aircraft."
"Alright, I read it."
"Great, here's your license!"
 
I work as an aquatics specialist for the city. One of my duties it to teach Red Cross lifeguard classes. There are two written tests for lifeguard and the student has to get 80% or better on each. The thing is that if they fail either or both of the tests, we review the questions that they missed and then give them the same test again. The difference is that the questions are in a different order than on the first test.

As far as minimum requirements, in Red Cross training there is the standard and the objective. We teach to the standard but test to the objective. Instructors are tested to the standard to be certified as instructors. I'm not being critical of Red Cross, I'm just saying that is the way they do it.

We hire around a hundred lifeguards every summer to work at out aquatics center. I would love to have a hundred great guards, but not everyone is great. All of our guards are good guards, a few of them are great guards.
 
Looking through the old books that Mom kept, found my WSI certificate from 1956. Is it still good? Do your guard chairs have escalators?

Maxmosbey said:
I work as an aquatics specialist for the city. One of my duties it to teach Red Cross lifeguard classes. There are two written tests for lifeguard and the student has to get 80% or better on each. The thing is that if they fail either or both of the tests, we review the questions that they missed and then give them the same test again. The difference is that the questions are in a different order than on the first test.

As far as minimum requirements, in Red Cross training there is the standard and the objective. We teach to the standard but test to the objective. Instructors are tested to the standard to be certified as instructors. I'm not being critical of Red Cross, I'm just saying that is the way they do it.

We hire around a hundred lifeguards every summer to work at out aquatics center. I would love to have a hundred great guards, but not everyone is great. All of our guards are good guards, a few of them are great guards.
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Bob Noel said:
If we shouldn't accept minimum acceptable standards, then why are they called "minimum acceptable standards"?
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Because minimum acceptable standards don't guarantee that I'm not going to die. Neither do higher standards, but the higher ones give me better odds.
 
wabower said:
Looking through the old books that Mom kept, found my WSI certificate from 1956. Is it still good? Do your guard chairs have escalators?
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Probably not valid anymore. Sorry. But if you come here and get certified, we will put you to work. We actually try to recruit retirees. I have a 58 year old Real Estate agent who guards part time. We also have a 46 year old mother of four who guards during the summer. Three of her kids guard too. I'm 62. It is a great summer job for older people who still want to stay active. We are trying to get a class put together for fifty and older this spring. We tried it last spring and only got one student, so we put her through a class with a bunch of sixteen through twenty year olds. We seem to have a lot of interest though this time around. Sorry, not trying to highjack the thread.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
Because minimum acceptable standards don't guarantee that I'm not going to die. Neither do higher standards, but the higher ones give me better odds.
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Pretty much all there is to it. I know there will come a time when I screw it up so bad I'm gonna have to dig deep to pull it it out, I wanna have a big bag of tricks about then.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Because minimum acceptable standards don't guarantee that I'm not going to die. Neither do higher standards, but the higher ones give me better odds.
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So are you saying that there should not be minimum standards at all? How would than work? If we need higher standards to assure a higher level of safety, wouldn't that just be a higher set minimum standards? They would still be minimum standards.
 
Maxmosbey said:
So are you saying that there should not be minimum standards at all? How would than work? If we need higher standards to assure a higher level of safety, wouldn't that just be a higher set minimum standards? They would still be minimum standards.
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Ever hear of 'continuing education'?
 
Sleepingsquirrel said:
government WORK, how government WORKS, two oxymorons in a row
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You know, some of us understand the limitations of our preconceptions. Stereotypes quite often have little or no relation to reality.

When was the last time you or anyone you knew caught polio? That was government work....
 
Henning said:
Ever hear of 'continuing education'?
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Of course I have. I believe that continuing education might be a part of the minimum standards. Isn't there a minimum amount of continuing education that is required to stay current?
 
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MAKG1 said:
You know, some of us understand the limitations of our preconceptions. Stereotypes quite often have little or no relation to reality.

When was the last time you or anyone you knew caught polio? That was government work....
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ok , I was wrong again! ......Efforts to save the nation from going over a year-end "fiscal cliff" were in disarray as lawmakers fled the Capitol for their Christmas…
 
Maxmosbey said:
So are you saying that there should not be minimum standards at all? How would than work? If we need higher standards to assure a higher level of safety, wouldn't that just be a higher set minimum standards? They would still be minimum standards.
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welcome to the end of the thought process...

:)
 
Not really, unless you count wink & nod as part of it.

Maxmosbey said:
Of course I have. I believe that continuing education might be a part of the minimum standards. Isn't there a minimum amount of continuing education that is required to stay current?
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Find a way to impliment high minimum standards of good judgement in Aviation and many problems will disappear.

Is that too long for a fortune cookie?
 
It won't work under our current honor system. The one where the FAA has the honor and the pilots have the system.

Dave Krall CFII said:
Find a way to impliment high minimum standards of good judgement in Aviation and many problems will disappear.

Is that too long for a fortune cookie?
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MAKG1 said:
You know, some of us understand the limitations of our preconceptions. Stereotypes quite often have little or no relation to reality.

When was the last time you or anyone you knew caught polio? That was government work....
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Government work?
 
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