Ideal aircraft for commercial training

[rickgn]

Eights on pylons, turns around a point, and Lazy 8s are three separate maneuvers. It looks like you’re blending parameters for them.

A chandelle is a maximum performance climb. Unless you’re starting at 7500’, 65% is not maximum performance.

15 degrees nose up is nothing alarming. You start at a speed not much above liftoff and increase power as you begin the climb. When you do these with a CFI, it would be a great idea to actualy do some at full throttle to see what real nose up looks like.

110 is way too fast once you’re on short final and landing is assured. Cross the threshold at the same speed you normally do. Try to touch down at 80 and you’re going to run out of gas taxiing back, you’ll be so far down the runway before you finally stop.

You really need to start training with a CFI before doing any more of this. At this point, your understanding of the maneuvers is inaccurate. While that can be corrected, it’s likely that you will have challenges resetting and learning it per standards (Law of Primacy). Continuing to self-study without an accurate basic understanding of the techniques and performance standards will cost you time, effort, frustration, and money.

Great info. Thanks. So far from this thread there have been a lot of great comments. I appreciate the inputs.

A bit more background:
For the past two years now, flying has become a necessary, expensive mode of transportation rather than a passion and joy. For me, so far, this has idea of advancing my skill level has been a rediscovery of why I enjoyed flying in the first place. I have had commercial maneuver training, but it was about 10 years ago, and it was all in 172s and AA5s. I didn't see the point of continuing the training because I was comfortable in my career and was unlikely to pursue aviation for income. Since then, my goals were very different. For example, fling across the Rockies solo, or learning to fly in the oxygen zone, etc. Nothing that really required lazy 8s, etc. Now my goals are changing. As I look towards semi-retirement in 9-10 years, I might be interested in doing part time commercial work for hire. The biggest hurdle seems to be just getting started.

Taking it back to the original question:
Am I going to run into issues using my current airplane to do the commercial training? Not "do I take lessons or not". Obviously, I'm going to take lessons. Right now I want to focus on qualifying or disqualifying my airplane as the path to get there. There's not a lot of sense wasting time and money with an instructor who might later tell me that no, you should use a smaller airplane. Nor do I want to waste time and money getting refamiliarized with a smaller airplane (to checkride standards) while I have a perfectly good airplane sitting in the hanger, which I would then have to fly mine anyway so that my cylinders don't rust (while I'm training I'm not likely doing any trips so my airplane rots in the hanger until I'm done training).

When I bought the Lance I had about 5 hours of training before I was allowed to solo. After that, other than biannual training, I mostly fly from point-A to point-B at full cruise power. I see a steep turn about once every 2 years when I do biannual. Other than an occasional downwind to base to final, my airplane rarely sees the throttle below full forward. It's easy to just get into a routine. I believe that many pilots in my situation get into a routine because, like me, do a lot of cross country time and fly the same airplane a lot. Over time, I suppose even basic skills need a refresher. I hear many stories about 20,000 hour pilots who can only fly an autopilot. I would say I'm not that far gone yet, nor do I ever want to be that guy. So, I'm acknowledging that yes, I'm falling into a rut, and I want a reason to do more training. The commercial rating is a huge motivator for me because it's a goal to meet, and checkride standard I'll need to work towards.

I'm certainly not trying to avoid getting lessons. I'm seeing the benefits of going through the training, even if I never use the commercial rating for money. It gives me a goal to work towards. However, I think a lot about resource management. Time and money should be spent well. Otherwise this just won't happen. My current process as understanding the flight characteristics of my airplane better before I begin formal training. I recognize that I could have used more training in the Lance when I first bought it. Good luck finding anyone who flies a PA32R for maneuvers regularly (maybe that's another survey thread).

The instructors who flew with me at the time had PA32 (Cherokee Six) experience, which is a different animal (mostly due to the speed differences). This is partially because my airplane has several mods that allow it to perform beyond the POH speeds. In many cases the instructors were experimenting and learning with me. Beyond getting up to basic standards and being safe, I didn't feel like I learned much about this specific airplane. It was more practical knowledge and general standards.

It's interesting that "habits to break" was mentioned. I think my first habit to break is only flying from point-A to point-B. What's the harm of me practicing the basics? For me, this is pre-work. If I were to take commercial training right now, my first lesson would to pay someone $X per hour to tell me I need more basics practice before proceeding. Got it. Thanks. I already know I need to work on my basics (that's what I'm doing). While I practice the basics, I note numbers and speeds so that I can "fly by the numbers" in whatever the situation calls for.

I'll be more specific about my original question:

Which maneuvers for the commercial checkride will require full power? And which maneuvers do not have a standard, which will allow me to fly them at say 60% power? My concern is maintaining maneuver speed at light weight

Maybe a follow up question should be: Are there any Lance or Saratoga fliers in the Southeast who actually do maneuvers and can give me some starting numbers to go by?

Thanks all!

 

[ateamer]

It's interesting that "habits to break" was mentioned. I think my first habit to break is only flying from point-A to point-B. What's the harm of me practicing the basics? For me, this is pre-work. If I were to take commercial training right now, my first lesson would to pay someone $X per hour to tell me I need more basics practice before proceeding. Got it. Thanks. I already know I need to work on my basics (that's what I'm doing). While I practice the basics, I note numbers and speeds so that I can "fly by the numbers" in whatever the situation calls for.

The harm is that you don’t know how to fly the maneuvers, so you’ll be teaching yourself, and it probably won’t be correct technique. You had some training in commercial maneuvers years ago, but haven’t been doing flying that incorporates any of it, so those skills that were not developed to completion in the first place are not going to be rejuvenated.

If you start commercial training, the CFI might tell you that practice is needed on basic private pilot maneuvers, but he will not send you to practice commercial maneuvers until he’s given you training on them and you’re showing adequate understanding of the techniques, and not making glaring mistakes in performance. He also might well tell you that more dual is needed before you practice solo, to prevent reinforcing poor technique.

Commercial maneuvers are very little about numbers - power settings, entry speeds, and engine parameters - and very much about artistry - smooth inputs, coordination, 3D flying without looking at the panel. In short, flying the airplane like an airplane instead of flying it like a systems manager.

 

[iamtheari]

The harm is that you don’t know how to fly the maneuvers, so you’ll be teaching yourself, and it probably won’t be correct technique. You had some training in commercial maneuvers years ago, but haven’t been doing flying that incorporates any of it, so those skills that were not developed to completion in the first place are not going to be rejuvenated.

If you start commercial training, the CFI might tell you that practice is needed on basic private pilot maneuvers, but he will not send you to practice commercial maneuvers until he’s given you training on them and you’re showing adequate understanding of the techniques, and not making glaring mistakes in performance. He also might well tell you that more dual is needed before you practice solo, to prevent reinforcing poor technique.

Commercial maneuvers are very little about numbers - power settings, entry speeds, and engine parameters - and very much about artistry - smooth inputs, coordination, 3D flying without looking at the panel. In short, flying the airplane like an airplane instead of flying it like a systems manager.

Just to reinforce the above statements, a CFI has gone through training, testing, and experience in identifying things that pilots do wrong. For example, a good CFI will know from how you rolled into a chandelle whether you are going to stall the plane before you get to 180 degrees of turn. Then, he can walk you back through the maneuver so you learn how to nail the entry. Without that, you'll have to work out your own solution, which may be the correct one but has a better chance of ending up like this:

 

[rickgn]

...flying the airplane like an airplane instead of flying it like a systems manager

Well said. Almost poetic.

I think that's how I used to fly -- maybe 15 years ago. Recently I have been converting all of my log books from paper to electronic. It's been a flashback through time. With this conversation thread I started thinking about how long it's been since I've done focused training. Well, it's been a while.

Thanks all for the info. I will rethink how I'm going to get this done.

Meanwhile I'll still have to think about if I want to burn up more engine time on my airplane. It shouldn't be difficult for me to jump back in a PA28.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Throw a couple of cases of water in the back and go fly. Your plane will do fine.

 

[rickgn]

Throw a couple of cases of water in the back and go fly. Your plane will do fine.

That totally makes sense. I can put some weight in the front and the back. The PA32 300 and Lance behave more like a 180 when closer to max gross. With more weight, the maneuvering speed is higher, so less worries on my mind.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

That totally makes sense. I can put some weight in the front and the back. The PA32 300 and Lance behave more like a 180 when closer to max gross. With more weight, the maneuvering speed is higher, so less worries on my mind.

Why is that less worry? Maneuvering speed is higher because stall speed is higher.

 

[rickgn]

Why is that less worry? Maneuvering speed is higher because stall speed is higher.

Yes, there is a tradeoff with higher stall speed. As long as I know when the stall will break I can handle that problem. I would rather get the power in a consistent range so that I can focus on stick-and-rudder. My airplane's main mission is hauling a lot of weight. Without the weight, it takes a lot more attention to power and speed management. I'm comfortable with the higher stall speed.

I think @Checkout_my_Six gets what I was asking. I'm trying to find a consistent mid-weight configuration that allows me to stay in the "sweet spot". Not too heavy, not too light - just right. The Lance is quite nose heavy. With forward CG, just getting it to stall takes some work if starting from maneuvering speed (I can't make it stall with yoke alone with full power - I need a lot of trim). Moving the CG back a bit will helps. Mid-weight "tames the beast" a bit. When light weight I have to do a lot of power management. I'd rather keep it simple and consistent while I do my training. With 2 people up front and 2/3 tank of gas (accounting for some burn-off) I'm concerned I'll be too light -- especially as the checkride continues and I burn off fuel.

Of course, I will work all of this out with an instructor. For now I was looking for advice for a starting point.

 

[farangutan]

Even though I had a plane I fly regularly with the club (Grumman AA5), I went to a local school and did my commercial in their Piper Archers. For those planes every maneuver is already worked out, speeds, power setting, configuration, altitudes, etc. The instructors all did their training in these planes and then teach out of them. There wasn't any experimentation, just run through the material and drill it. I still went up to drill it in my plane to practice the procedure but when it came time for the checkride, I made sure to be sharp in the school plane.