Icy Runway - what do you do?

Troy Whistman said:
JD, if this is the situation I think it is, this happened just 15 minutes from my house near an airfield I've flown out of a lot (Hicks, just north of Fort Worth Meacham).

I heard the story on the radio driving into work this morning, and saw the pictures on www.nbc5i.com.

Sorry to hear of your loss, I hope his brother makes it.
That's the one.

It'll be a while before we know what really happened, but I'm not sure I'm buying the "practicing stunt maneuvers" thing just yet. I'm heading over there (Hicks) this afternoon and see what I can find out.

-JD
 
You question my statement of flight controls being effective at very low airspeed? Try this.

Taxi at a normal speed. Reduce power to idle. Release pressure off of rudder pedals. Apply full yoke / stick to the right. What happens? Airplane goes left. This is due to the your flight controls.

Ever see a taildragger airplane that has a locked tailwheel, or it actually drags? What about one without brakes? There are some that are both. No brakes and no wheel on the back. How do they turn? By applying thrust which gets air over the rudder to turn the airplane. It will take a lot of thrust, but it will turn. Both of these points are showing that you do have flight controls and you should ALWAYS be flying the airplane. Not driving it. Until it is tied down, fly it.

Ever taxi a light taildragger like a J-3 in heavy winds? What will you be doing? You are essentially flying the airplane on the ground. The brakes will overheat and become worthless before you even know it.

When I read what someone wrote, I look at what they wrote. That's it. I don't dig into their profile or look at their picture and start stereotyping. Because what matters is what they wrote.

It's pretty funny. Can't find something wrong with what I wrote, and instead of having an intelligent adult conversation. People resort to negative personal comments instead of actually replying to my writing and the topic at hand.

I love it. :D

Want me to start ripping you guys apart about slower reaction time? Learning at a slower rate? All of those are proven to come with age. Nope. I won't do that. I'm above that. I have respect for everyone here.

I'm sorry for your loss. But one thing we must accept in life is to accept responsibility for our actions. Nothing is out of our control, We are the pilot of the airplane. Whatever happens is our responsibility. Some of the most talented pilots in the world have been killed in airplanes. That doesn't mean they didn't mess up.

Accepting responsibility for things has got me further in my life and career then anything else.
 
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Uh, my Cherokee does not turn on the ground when I use the yoke. Overheating brakes? LOL. Ooooooooooooooooookay. I can find lots wrong with what you wrote, but it's not what, it's how. It's your attitude that you want everyone to think you know everything. Never mind that a lot of these guys have been flying longer than you've been alive. What would they know?
 
N2212R said:
Uh, my Cherokee does not turn on the ground when I use the yoke. Overheating brakes? LOL. Ooooooooooooooooookay. I can find lots wrong with what you wrote, but it's not what, it's how. It's your attitude that you want everyone to think you know everything. Never mind that a lot of these guys have been flying longer than you've been alive. What would they know?
B-I-N-G-O

"Seen a taildragger that. . ."

Seen hell, I've OWNED 'em!

I'm sorry for your loss. But one thing we must accept in life is to accept responsibility for our actions. Nothing is out of our control, We are the pilot of the airplane. Whatever happens is our responsibility. Some of the most talented pilots in the world have been killed in airplanes. That doesn't mean they didn't mess up.

Don't you DARE patronize me with your "I'm sorry for your loss, BUT. . ." horse manure. The guy flying that airplane has over 27,000 hours and 40 years PROFESSIONAL experience ranging from running like hell from NVA SAMS to hauling snot-nosed know-it-all brats like you around on United heavy iron.

You and your piddly-ass 100+ hours doesn't give you ANY right or footing whatsoever to sit in front of your computer and judge the actions of pilots FAR more experienced than you ever will be and sit with your pios B.S. of "actions and responsibility."

And for what it's worth, as I'm writing this, it wasn't my friend that died on impact--it was his brother. As usual, the media got it wrong and assumed that the front seat in a bi-plane was for the pilot.

My friend is alive--barely. But he has a living hell ahead of him knowing that he killed his brother.

So, Jesse. Why don't you come on down here to Texas and explain to my buddy how "actions and responsibilities" work?

Grow up.

-JD
 
All I said that in an accident. Someone was at fault. It's that simple. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, a bad person, or anything of that nature. My point of this entire thread is that in an accident someone was at fault. You jumped in this thread where that was what was being said. That is all. You brought your friend's unfortuneante accident into this thread.

Are you saying that there is a pilot out there that is perfect? There isn't. It doesn't matter how many hours you have.. you are not perfect.

Your imperfection in the wrong circumstances can be fatal.

That's the hard truth of flying. The thing we must all accept. It can be fatal.

There is never a period of no risk.

Am I perfect? No.

Could my imperfection at some point kill me? Yes.

I understand and accept the risks of what I do in life. If something happens, I'm not a victim. I take responsibility for it.

N2212R said:
Uh, my Cherokee does not turn on the ground when I use the yoke. Overheating brakes? LOL. Ooooooooooooooooookay. I can find lots wrong with what you wrote, but it's not what, it's how. It's your attitude that you want everyone to think you know everything. Never mind that a lot of these guys have been flying longer than you've been alive. What would they know?

Overheating brakes is VERY common on old 40's era planes. Get into a situation to where you need to taxi in a crosswind and you might not have a choice but to drag a brake.

Airplane brakes are very small, they can easily overheat and fade. They will nolonger be effective. You will then be weathervaning into the wind.

I don't know everything? I write what I know. That is a common problem? I also don't say anything about ANYONE here not knowing something.

I've never flown a Cherokee. But I have tried this in:

Piper Super Cruiser (light taildragger)
Cessna 172
Cessna 150
Beechcraft Sierra (200 hp, complex)

It will do it in all of them. Taxi at a decent speed. This will vary depending o nthe airplane. I would say it is very noticeable around 15 to 20 mph in most of these airplanes. Remove pressure from rudders. Apply full aileron. You will slowly start to turn opposite of the aileron you applied.

Try it.

Here is the thread that lead me to trying this:
http://www.thepilotlounge.com/yaf/default.aspx?g=posts&t=2719
 
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You're right, what would I know about my plane, being an owner and all. Guess I better just run into the trees at the end of the runway instead of using my useless aviation brakes. If you are over heating your brakes I'd be more worried about a nose over than them wearing out and not working. You are not going to overheat your brakes while taxiing, if you are, tear up your ticket, you are unsafe.
 
N2212R said:
You're right, what would I know about my plane, being an owner and all. Guess I better just run into the trees at the end of the runway instead of using my useless aviation brakes. If you are over heating your brakes I'd be more worried about a nose over than them wearing out and not working. You are not going to overheat your brakes while taxiing, if you are, tear up your ticket, you are unsafe.

Oh man. Yes you will

Climb into a J-3 cub. Taxi a mile with a crosswind. If it has the factory brake setup. It WILL overheat. It's that simple.

I didn't say you cherokee is going to overheat. I said it CAN happen with brakes.

It's called brake fade.

My dad cropdusted for many years and logged thousands and thousands of hours doing so. He told me that it would even happen in the stearman on windy days. They also had improved brakes to deal with this.

You will have to drag a brake in a taildragger if there is enough of a crosswind.
This topic isn't going anywhere. Words are being pulled out of my mouth. I'm done.
 
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jangell said:
Climb into a J-3 cub. Taxi a mile with a crosswind. If it has the factory brake setup. It WILL overheat. It's that simple.

I didn't say you cherokee is going to overheat. I said it CAN happen with brakes.

It's called brake fade.

My dad cropdusted for many years and logged thousands and thousands of hours doing so. He told me that it would even happen in the stearman on windy days. They also had improved brakes to deal with this.

You will have to drag a brake in a taildragger if there is enough of a crosswind.
This topic isn't going anywhere. Words are being pulled out of my mouth. I'm done.
(Sigh)

Jesse, I have no doubt that you will be a decent stick & rudder in the near future, but it's your absolutist, know-it-all attitude that is rubbing a lot of folks plumb wrong. A couple of weeks into UPT would cure that, then you would be on the road to becoming a really good pilot.

Believe it or not, there are other pilots out there besides you, your dad, and the handful of instructors you've had. Some of us have as few hours as you and some of us have more hours than your dad, instructors and friends put together times ten. Most of us, however, fall somewhere in the middle of that range and have learned a few things ourselves along the way.

One of the things I've learned is that you can't always apply something to one kind of airplane and make it apply to all airplanes.

Your example about overheating the brakes with a J3? Yes, it can be done--but it also depends upon how strong the crosswind is and from which direction. . . And, there is also a very neat little trick you can do that Cub drivers down here in the SW have known for years to help neutralize crosswinds that you can't do on a C120/140 or on taildraggers like my RV8.

Do you know what it is?

My RV taxis a bit different in a crosswind than does my neighbor's 150 Texas Taildragger, which taxis a bit different from a friend's J3 which taxis different from my friend's (now totalled) Stearman.

W/B, CG, surface, so many variables that determine how different airplanes react--but you seem to insist on making what is correct for ONE aircraft correct for ALL aircraft, and that just ain't the case.

Keep flying and keep learning. It's more than obvious that you love flying (a lot more than you love being stuck in Des Moines over Christmas--and who wouldn't?) and your website reflects that.

In fact, I got a really good chuckle out of your Oshkosh experience, having had more than one of those experiences with whining friends (even a few pilot friends) who want to go home the day after you get there. I've also spent a night or two inside my airplane when the famous Lake Winnebago storms blow in and my tent wasn't up to the task. Now, I check into a hotel, rent a car and act like the old grumpy pilot I am. Same goes for Sun 'N Fun--will never sleep on the ground and fight those damned fire ants ever again. Retirement does have it privileges.

And, just curious, how often do you practice your emergency procedures? My earliest instructors preached "habit patterning" to me, and it's stuck for decades. I look through my log book and if I've gone more than ten or so hours without practicing engine-out and other IFE procedures, then it's up in the Skyhawk and away we go. And at least every 20 hours in the Cardinal, I practice a manual gear landing procedure.

Reason I ask is that in your first hundred to five hundred hours, it's easy to get away from a lot of basic habits and now is the time to make sure your "habit patterning" is getting engraved on the aviation portion of your brain.

Because if you fly long enough, someday you will need to use at least one of those procedures.

Regards,

-JD
 
CowboyPilot said:
I lost a longtime friend this afternoon when his Stearman nosed in. This guy was ex-military and a retired airline captain and I'd flown with him in that Stearman more than once. He died on impact and his brother was in the other seat and got airlifted to the nearest hospital--and as of now, it's not looking too good.

I'm sorry for your loss and hope for the best WRT the brother. And you're absolutely right that there is always the potential for serious injury and death when you fly no matter how good you are.
 
CowboyPilot said:
Keep flying and keep learning. It's more than obvious that you love flying (a lot more than you love being stuck in Des Moines over Christmas--and who wouldn't?) and your website reflects that.

I wish I was over that adventure.

It's been solid IFR since Friday. I had to work on Monday. I took a ghetto shuttle bus (Jefferson Lines) from Des Moines to Rochester. I missed work Monday but was able to make it today.

The airplane is still in Des Moines. As soon as it goes VFR. I'm going to pay someone to drive me down there so I can fly the airplane back.
 
jangell said:
It's been solid IFR since Friday. I had to work on Monday. I took a ghetto shuttle bus (Jefferson Lines) from Des Moines to Rochester. I missed work Monday but was able to make it today.

The airplane is still in Des Moines. As soon as it goes VFR. I'm going to pay someone to drive me down there so I can fly the airplane back.
I took a bus to basic training back in '68--have never forgiven Greyhound to this day.

I've had to leave my airplane a few times and one thing that sometimes worked out for me would be to check in with the local flight schools and see who needed/was going on a dual XC. I offered to pay for the "pro rata share" of the gas if they'd fly me to my airplane--but this was before the days of George Orwell overseeing every little FAR that had to do with pro rata. . .

Good luck getting your bird back.

-JD

lancefisher said:
I'm sorry for your loss and hope for the best WRT the brother. And you're absolutely right that there is always the potential for serious injury and death when you fly no matter how good you are.
Good news/bad news.

Good news is that the pilot is the survivor--brother was up front and died on impact. Bad news is that the pilot (and longtime friend of mine) is busted up pretty bad, but worse than that, he'll always have the memory of his brother up in front of him as the last thing he'll remember seeing. . .

According to a couple of actual eyewitnesses (one of whom is an experienced, longtime high-time pilot), the plane took off as our winds and gusts were increasing exponentially (we got a big front and dry line moving through--giving us hellacious crosswinds and gusts up to 45 kts+), banked left after liftoff, appeared to stall, then a huge gust literally blew him right into the ground. Never had a chance according to the reliable witness.

There is something damn disconcerting about pulling into an airport and seeing airplane wreckage just on the other side of the road barely beyond EOR.

-JD
 
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CowboyPilot said:
I took a bus to basic training back in '68--have never forgiven Greyhound to this day.

I've had to leave my airplane a few times and one thing that sometimes worked out for me would be to check in with the local flight schools and see who needed/was going on a dual XC. I offered to pay for the "pro rata share" of the gas if they'd fly me to my airplane--but this was before the days of George Orwell overseeing every little FAR that had to do with pro rata. . .

Good luck getting your bird back.

-JD


Good news/bad news.

Good news is that the pilot is the survivor--brother was up front and died on impact. Bad news is that the pilot (and longtime friend of mine) is busted up pretty bad, but worse than that, he'll always have the memory of his brother up in front of him as the last thing he'll remember seeing. . .

According to a couple of actual eyewitnesses (one of whom is an experienced, longtime high-time pilot), the plane took off as our winds and gusts were increasing exponentially (we got a big front and dry line moving through--giving us hellacious crosswinds and gusts up to 45 kts+), banked left after liftoff, appeared to stall, then a huge gust literally blew him right into the ground. Never had a chance according to the reliable witness.

There is something damn disconcerting about pulling into an airport and seeing airplane wreckage just on the other side of the road barely beyond EOR.

-JD

I've been "fetched" twice. Once I couldn't get any further north than Fairbault on the way home from Cedar Rapids due to lowering ceilings. A CFI friend from my flying club went to the airport (FCM) and drove my car to FBL. My wife drove the car back while the CFI gave me my very first IR training flight, in actual no less!
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I didn't want this post to get lost in the noise of another post, so here it is.

In my personal life, there is NO reason why I have to be anywhere at any given time. If it isn't fun, I don't fly. If I am not comfortable, I don't fly. My airplane does not have a heater. So when it gets cold, I don't fly. An icy runway fits into the catagory of being cold, and no fun. So I choose not to fly. It also is a risk management thing. It also means that I don't have all THAT much experience dealing with ice.

All that just to say what anyone would or would not have done in a particular situation is based SOLELY on their experience level and comfort level. We can sit here all day hangar talking this to death. But when the excrement hits the ventilation device, you have to go with training and experience level. I am sure there may be some wrong answers, but I am also sure there aren't any "right" answers.

By the way, in my professional life, I don't have many choices. When the braking actions are NIL, we cannot operate. It is a safety thing. Wouldn't we all be better served safety wise if we adopted our own personal limitations that at least partially mimicked what the "Professionals" do?

If I slid in my car on ice with no studs or chains, it's my fault.

In airplane ice ops where scratching of the flight was declined by the pilot, it seems like unless there's a whole lot of room, ice studs or dare I say it, small radial tire type chains would be a no-brainer safety enhancement, increased ground roll taken into account but not the FAA equipment regs.
 
CowboyPilot said:
That's the one.

It'll be a while before we know what really happened, but I'm not sure I'm buying the "practicing stunt maneuvers" thing just yet. I'm heading over there (Hicks) this afternoon and see what I can find out.

-JD

JD, I talked to somebody on the field tonight who knows him well and talked to somebody who visited the hospital today; he's expected to make it. Broke an ankle, has a bad contusion and a laceration to the face, but will survive. His brother, visiting, did not survive, as you know, but he doesn't know that yet (under medication). Thought you'd want to know the "positive" news.

The plane is located near the approach end to runway 32; initial reports are that the engine failed on downwind. He may have gotten low/slow in the base to final turn, but as a 32,000 hour airline captain (retired), I'm sure he knows to keep the speed up. Only the final report will tell us anything--the rest is conjecture right now, but I agree with the 'practicing stunt maneuvers' being hogwash... he wouldn't do that over this airfield.
 
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Troy Whistman said:
JD, I talked to somebody on the field tonight who knows him well and talked to somebody who visited the hospital today; he's expected to make it. Broke an ankle, has a bad contusion and a laceration to the face, but will survive. His brother, visiting, did not survive, as you know, but he doesn't know that yet (under medication). Thought you'd want to know the "positive" news.

The plane is located near the approach end to runway 32; initial reports are that the engine failed on downwind. He may have gotten low/slow in the base to final turn, but as a 32,000 hour airline captain (retired), I'm sure he knows to keep the speed up. Only the final report will tell us anything--the rest is conjecture right now, but I agree with the 'practicing stunt maneuvers' being hogwash... he wouldn't do that over this airfield.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what NTSB comes up with when they go over the motor.

That's not an easy field to fly in or out of--in fact, I've heard that several of the schools at Meacham prohibit their students from flying in or out of it. Ridiculous. You just have to be on your game because it's not a 10K x 2K runway, and you do have to deal with crosswinds damn near every time you land/takeoff.

The guy kept that Stearman up--I know that for a fact, having hung around his hangar enough and helped him turn wrenches. Only thing I can gather, being as familiar with the field as I am, is that if he lost his engine on downwind, heading for Rwy 32 in the hellacious crosswinds and gusts that were going on Monday, he had a helluva situation on his hands.

Way too much (expletive deleted) development going on around that field. Won't be long before it's like (expletive deleted) Addison. Lose an engine around THAT airport and you've got a helluva situation on your hands.

Thanks for the update info, Troy. It's much appreciated.

-JD
 
jangell said:
I'm sorry for your loss. But one thing we must accept in life is to accept responsibility for our actions. Nothing is out of our control, We are the pilot of the airplane. Whatever happens is our responsibility. Some of the most talented pilots in the world have been killed in airplanes. That doesn't mean they didn't mess up.
Dammit, Jesse, that was just wrong to post, bud. I agree that they've been riding you a bit hard - primarily, as best I can see - because you DO post like a young guy, full of absolutes and positive statements. But you need to give a little respect here, for the dead and injured, for our friend who's got a friend in trouble. Don't let your argument with him get in the way of character, ok?
 
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Greebo said:
I believe you mean elevator effectiveness?


You guys mean I can't make the tail drag on the ground with rudder?:rolleyes: Duh on my part! Yes, I meant the elevator. And you sure can make a 172 drag on the ground with that elevator, even at fairly slow speeds. Makes quite a lovely sound. I'm also told the sparks flying off the back can be rather impressive too.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
You guys mean I can't make the tail drag on the ground with rudder?:rolleyes:

Oh.. You could.

Simply fly at a 90 degree bank :)
 
My 1st solo was with a x/wind on an iced RW. Worked OK for me just hold the crab right through touchdown...and slide.:D
 
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