Ice Ice Baby

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
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Feb 27, 2005
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Dallas, Texas
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Display name:
Dave Siciliano
Linked up with Lance yesterday; he doesn't let a little ice in the forecast bother him <g>

Flew down from Portage to Rockford. Picked up light rime on the climb. Tops were about 7,000 feet. Clear on top. Going in to land at Rockford, picked up clear ice on the approach to 19, just barely enough to cycle the boots.

Departed Rockford and got light rime on the climb out. Once again, tops at 6,000 and clear above. Made an approach into Waterloo, WI and Lance was on approach just in front of me. Stayed on top at 6,000 until 10 miles from the IAF, then, dropped down to 3,000 to cross. Stepped down on the approach and broke out about 2,000. Once again, light rime.

Lance was on the ground and had cleaned off his plane by then. Came over and helped us clean ours off. Leading edges of the wings, nose, wing between the nacelle and fuselage, all vents and antennas. Props were clean and the tops of the boots. 'Bout 1/4 inch all over. Same thing on the rear.

Ate a bite with Lance and his friend, then departed for Dallas. Light ice on climb out again. Actually, at FL180 got some trace icing at -18C. An RJ called light rime accumulation at FL220.

Not a day for non-ice guys to be out flying around. No problem arriving in Dallas. Just low ceilings and rain.

Best,

Dave
 
jdwatson said:
Known Icing and Two Engines, by the sounds of it. :)
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Twin would was good! Nice to have all systems workin, but if something wasn't, the redundancy is preferential to the alternative. Actually, there are more times than I would have thought the P-Baron really earns it's salt. Yesterday, ice on departure twice and on two approaches; in cruise at FL180. Pressurization is really paying off for me as I fly in the mid teens to low 20s a lot. Pitch black last night; stars; no moon. No horizon until I broke out on the ILS at Addision. Solid overcast below with icing conditions about half way down.

Not good conditions for any recip single and I really go back and forth on a turbine single in these types of conditions. I know the PT-6 is very dependable, but there are twin turbines coming in here with one shut down more often than one would think! I also lost DC amps to one prop yesterday. Wouldn't have wanted that to be the only prop!

Best,

Dave
 
I posted this on another board.

Yesterday, I returned from Portage (Madison area), WI to Addison (Dallas area), Texas in the middle of some pretty nasty icing conditions. Most reports were of trace or light ice. Cloud bottoms were about 2,200 around Portage with tops about 6,000. OAT was 10F when I departed. This really set this bird apart. In all those years I flew the TN A-36, I rarely cancelled a flight, but this would have been a cancel as the A-36 had no de-ice systems.

The Baron climbed right up through the clag, shed the light ice in the climb and got me to clear skies above for the short hop to Rockford (RFD).
Didn't think I picked up much ice on the approach, but I got about 1/4 inch of clear ice on the leading edge of the wings, nose, vents, etc. Windscreen was clear from defrost and the hot plate; props were clean from heat. Tops of boots clean when I cycled them, but ice stayed on the front.

Departing Rockford and on the way to Waterloo (ALO), we picked up light rime in the climb; at 6,000 we broke out on top. Climb speed was better than normal due to the colder air. No performance deterioration I could detect.
Most ice that didn't come off the boots or windscreen sublinated off on the way over to Waterloo.

As were approached ALO, we asked to stay above the clouds and requested the GPS approach (no procedure turn was required from our direction of flight).
Stayed on top until about 10 miles from the IAF, then dropped down at 1,000 fpm to the IAF at 160 knots and maintained that speed until the FAF. After the FAF, we slowed to 140 and used approach flaps. We broke out about 2,000 and cycled the boots twice on the approach. Once just after the IAF and once when crossing the FAF. I didn't lower the gear until we saw the runway and had broken out. Slowed the plane and came over the fence a little bit faster than normal. Slowed a few feet over the runway and set the plane down. I didn't notice any unusual handling; the plane just felt a bit heavy.

On the ramp, we checked and found about 1/4 inch of ice everywhere that wasn't heated or booted. Cleaned anything off that would affect flight, then, went into the FBO for lunch, a visit with a friend in a B-55 and to plan the trip home.

A little after 5:00, we were wheels up on the way to Addison. Once again, in the climb, we picked up light rime on the way to FL180. There were multiple layers and we never really had a visible horizon. We continued to pick up trace ice at FL180 even though it was -18C. Not a real issue, and not enough to have to cycle the boots, but it keep us vigilant. Enroute, an RJ reported light rime at FL220. After dark, there were a few times we could sense thicker clouds but ice accumulation never really increased. We ran all the de-ice systems and checked for accumulation with the ice light frequently.

It was a very dark night. We could see stars above most times with light patches of clouds sometimes obscuring them. No moon! No horizon the entire flight. As a matter of fact, looking out the windscreen was very deceptive; if one tried to fly by visual reference, it would have been impossible. One time my co-pilot and I both commented about how rising clouds made it look as if we were descending, even though were in level flight.

At Addison, ceilings were low but vis was good in light rain. No ice on the way down or on the ILS 15 approach.

All in all, a challenging flight, but we never noticed any deterioration in the flight characteristics of the plane other than a two or three knot difference in cruise airspeed for a few minutes until the props shed some ice. (Very noticeable when some of it hit the side of the nose on the ice
shields.)

This plane has really earned it's keep for me! The K-ice made a real difference yesterday. The pressurization has been paying its way since I purchased the plane. They made this thing so well, it's really difficult to find a reasonable step up to something newer. When one looks at specific newer planes, they are either much more expensive with no more capability, or don't have the redundancy of this plane.

Anyway, my two cents is Walter and Olive nailed what I needed with the P-Baron!!

Best,

Dave
 
Mid teens to lower twenties is where all the fun FIKI stuff. Well all is a bad term...maybe mostly is better. Had a friend today fly his Conquest around 8000k on the way to Dallas from Tulsa. I used to hate the old King Air I flew b/c of fuel burns I had to go in the upper teens and wish I could have went lower. Sometimes lower is better....
 
Flannagan said:
Mid teens to lower twenties is where all the fun FIKI stuff. Well all is a bad term...maybe mostly is better. Had a friend today fly his Conquest around 8000k on the way to Dallas from Tulsa. I used to hate the old King Air I flew b/c of fuel burns I had to go in the upper teens and wish I could have went lower. Sometimes lower is better....
Click to expand...

Thanks! No Airmets or Sigmets yesterday on the route. No adverse PIREPs except at 6,000 or lower. Winds were off the right wing; so, we went up where the performance was better. Always a bunch of considerations!!

Best,

Dave
 
jdwatson said:
Nice write-up Dave. Challenging but fun, right ?
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Yes, it's why one invests in a plane like this and keeps up with the training. Fine balance sometimes between entering challenging conditions; yet, not pushing the limit. Yesterday is a day this kind of plane was made to address. ;)

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Yes, it's why one invests in a plane like this and keeps up with the training. Fine balance sometimes between entering challenging conditions; yet, not pushing the limit. Yesterday is a day this kind of plane was made to address. ;)

Best,

Dave
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Dave, just curious. If you're accumulating ice while going down the GS, do you activate the boots when you break out....which is what I've been doing....or do you just fly it on (assuming you have plenty of concrete....)?
 
Well Doc, you're making me think through this! I'm sure you have suggestions.

I usually try to cycle the boots any time I see substantial accumulation and automatically between the IAF and FAF and after the FAF on the descent once set up. I'm trying to cycle after crossing critical points when I can briefly focus on that need.

On an ILS, which is a bit different, I haven't encountered this problem yet. I would think I'd look over any time I had everything pegged and do what was needed. I do like your thought of also cycling after break out; considering flap deployment (if accumulations aren't meaningful or short runway).

I varied from procedure Sunday; didn't even lower the gear until I broke out and came down about 140 knots. Put my hand on the gear lever at FAF and didn't remove it until I lowered the gear, but I could see how that wouldn't be a great thing to do hand flying with lower ceilings. Had plenty of time with 2,000 foot ceilings to check accumulation, gear, consider flaps and set up for a faster than normal landing. This was part of the reason I went.

If weather was reported lower with any moderate ice reported I wouldn't have gone there. I would be interested in your thoughts if I got caught in a situation where I was shooting to near minimums with meaningful ice accumulations on the GS. My thought is I would put the gear down at intercept, no flaps or approach flaps at a maximum (which really helps slow the Baron). Cycling boots would have to come behind keeping the needles pegged in my mind.

Best,

Dave
 
Does the 58P have the ability to cycle the boots on a timer ? As an aside the cabin looks relatively narrow compared to other twins (e.g. Seneca), how wide is it ?
 
The POH dictates one let ice accumulate to at least 1/2 inch before cycling the boots so ice doesn't grow outside the contour of the inflated boots. One couldn't do that on a timer. In this plane, pushing the surface cycle switch fully inflates the boots one time.

Many folks have said not to wait that long and I didn't. In some cases, as with clear ice accumulation, it's very difficult to see how much has accumulated. I really can't see the front of the leading edge of the wing from the cockpit; only the top of the wing (where the boot inflates). In these conditions, there wasn't much risk ice would accumulate behind the boot.

Cabin width is 3' 6".

Best,

Dave
 
The feds seem to waffle as far as bridging with boots. I believe when I got my CFII a mere 3 yrs ago they were in "let it build up" mode. I think now they say to pop boots as soon as you get any.
 
That's correct, Tony. The problem is, if you do it while on the GS, you need 3" more MP just to stay on the GS. And you don't really want them blowing up when you are low and letting airspeed decay.
 
My POH says stall speed increases 3 to 4 knots with the boots operating.

SIMCOM suggested 1/4 inch minimum on the boots in my last annual recurrent training session (it's in their manual).

In the P-Baron, it also suggests a minimum speed of 140 knots in ice vs. my normal approach speed of 120 knots. I would have some extra speed to cycle boots if necessary, but it sounds as if would affect pitch.

Best,

Dave
 
sounds good Bruce, obviously you have the experience. I just read about this stuff. :D
 
Dave Siciliano said:
The POH dictates one let ice accumulate to at least 1/2 inch before cycling the boots so ice doesn't grow outside the contour of the inflated boots. One couldn't do that on a timer. In this plane, pushing the surface cycle switch fully inflates the boots one time.

Many folks have said not to wait that long and I didn't. In some cases, as with clear ice accumulation, it's very difficult to see how much has accumulated. I really can't see the front of the leading edge of the wing from the cockpit; only the top of the wing (where the boot inflates). In these conditions, there wasn't much risk ice would accumulate behind the boot.

Cabin width is 3' 6".

Best,

Dave
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I've been cycling the boots whenever I see ice. It seems to shed as well whether there's a sixteenth of an inch or (the most I've ever let build) a half inch. The idea of letting it build to prevent bridging comes from the days when boots had a much greater cross section on the inflatable part, the boots on my wing have several "ribs" spaced about an inch apart and they make such a "curvy" surface when inflated, it's hard to imagine ice forming a bridge on them.

As to popping the boots on final, I generally do so on short final if I suspect ice. If I see ice on approach before that I'll cycle then as well. I also generally use full flaps when landing as long as the boots appear to be shedding the ice and the buildup is slow enough that I don't expect to have any significant accumulation between the last cycle and touchdown. I've considered re-evaluating that policy since it's possible that a big leak at the tail could prevent those boots from inflating properly although I believe that this would prevent the cycle from completing and result in a noticeable erroneous indication on the boot controls. When I bought the plane there was a big leak at the top of the vertical boot on the tail and this did cause the cycle to hang requiring manual termination (the previous owner thought this was normal!).
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Wondered when you were going to chime in! Great to see you again.

Best,

Dave
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It's always a pleasure to meet up with you Dave. And while the food wasn't anything spectacular at the airport cafe, the entertainment was pretty good.

I'm still chasing down a few glitches in the recent upgrades but I think I've got all the major issues settled. Unfortunately two of those issues (roll steering disengaging during a hold and a mandatory PT on a GPS approach that shouldn't be required) are going to take some time to square away. And theoretically I'll be getting my HID landing lights installed in the next few days.
 
Well from my many hours of icing experience I've had too many boots bridge the ice so I never pop the boots with less than 1/4. I prefer 1/2 inch to be confident its going to shed. As far as popping them on final. I've done it twice in my career and I'll never do it again unless I can't hold GS. I always try to pop them before I slow down for the approach.
 
Thanks for posting this.

I've talked to a lot of folks that have a lot of time in these planes: I haven't found any that had an issue with bridging. Were you in a Baron when this happened? Maybe it's the speed or design. Larry O. related to me he's never encountered bridging in his NA 58 Baron. Maybe it depends on the conditions.

Anyway, I did wait for 1/4 inch or more. Unfortunately, with clear ice, it's a bit difficult to know. Also, this plane has a very thin horizontal stab. and is subject to tail stall. There's an excellent NASA vid on that. So, I'm a bit apprehensive about letting the build up get too large.

I'll test this again, but did cycle the boots the other day in a descent mode 21" of MP in my plane, and saw no change in MP. I know Bruce said he saw 3" drop. I asked Larry O. about it and he said he's never seen it on his Baron. Maybe our vacuum systems work differently.

always something to learn.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks for posting this.

I've talked to a lot of folks that have a lot of time in these planes: I haven't found any that had an issue with bridging. Were you in a Baron when this happened? Maybe it's the speed or design. Larry O. related to me he's never encountered bridging in his NA 58 Baron. Maybe it depends on the conditions.

Anyway, I did wait for 1/4 inch or more. Unfortunately, with clear ice, it's a bit difficult to know. Also, this plane has a very thin horizontal stab. and is subject to tail stall. There's an excellent NASA vid on that. So, I'm a bit apprehensive about letting the build up get too large.

I'll test this again, but did cycle the boots the other day in a descent mode 21" of MP in my plane, and saw no change in MP. I know Bruce said he saw 3" drop. I asked Larry O. about it and he said he's never seen it on his Baron. Maybe our vacuum systems work differently.

always something to learn.

Best,

Dave
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I understood Bruce saying that the increased drag from the boots required 3" more MP to maintain the same glide slope. But I might have read him wrong and have absolutely no experience with known ice airplanes.
 
On my plane, the boots only cycle once when one flips the switch; they don't remain on. It does say in the POH that my stall speed increases 4 knots with the surface de-ice system operating, but I haven't noticed a decrease in MP. Some planes automatically cycle and keep doing that. On my bird, one flip of the auto switch give one cycle only.

Best,

Dave
 
I fly the little bigger brother of the Baron. The King Air 90. I've always had trouble shedding ice at slower speeds with small amounts of ice. Even in a decent just below Vmo the small amounts of ice has trouble shedding cleanly. Even with freshly waxed boots. But who knows, maybe Beech got the Baron design right. I don't really have any time in the Baron to compare the two. But I have flown bigger planes than the King Air and I've seen similar things. So I guess my overall feeling would be, if it works, do it, cause ice is nothing to fool around with.
 
Thanks. In this case, I was able to stay over 130 knots until I broke out which is what the POH recommends in my plane. Part of that is to prevent buildups behind the boots. If I had to drag it in to minimums, I could see where it would be different.

For those that haven't seen this vid from NASA on tail plane icing and how it creates a stall of the tail plane, here's the link. Sobering stuff

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

Best,

Dave
 
Dave
Very good video, thanks for pointing that one out to me!
 
Dave Siciliano said:
On my plane, the boots only cycle once when one flips the switch; they don't remain on. It does say in the POH that my stall speed increases 4 knots with the surface de-ice system operating, but I haven't noticed a decrease in MP. Some planes automatically cycle and keep doing that. On my bird, one flip of the auto switch give one cycle only.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave, there's no connection between the boots and MP at all. Like Jesse guesses, Bruce's comment was in regard to extra MP he added to counteract the increased drag of the ice, not a MP reaction to boot operation. The boots are operated entirely off your vacuum pumps. The pump output provides the pressure to inflate them and the suction side is applied when the boots are deflated to keep them flat against the wing's leading edge.

BTW I did get the same email from Fred as you did. Hopefully we'll stay in the same group.
 
lancefisher said:
Dave, there's no connection between the boots and MP at all. Like Jesse guesses, Bruce's comment was in regard to extra MP he added to counteract the increased drag of the ice, not a MP reaction to boot operation. The boots are operated entirely off your vacuum pumps. The pump output provides the pressure to inflate them and the suction side is applied when the boots are deflated to keep them flat against the wing's leading edge.

BTW I did get the same email from Fred as you did. Hopefully we'll stay in the same group.
Click to expand...

I guess the reason I was thinking this was Bruce asked if I would cycle the boots on short final. Why wouldn't I unless he's talking about diversion of attention? I didn't get the part about them blowing up on short final. Oh well.

Best,

Dave
 
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