I went paperless yesterday

azure

azure

Final Approach
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
8,320
Location
Varmint Country
Display Name
azure
Home Airfield
KMPV
As everyone knows, it's getting harder and harder to come by paper charts and personally, I find it's just too much trouble to physically drive or fly to a pilot store every 56 days to buy a bag of bulky charts just for backup. I use and love ForeFlight on the iPad and rarely refer to paper anymore anyway. I was eligible for a cellphone upgrade on my Verizon plan and so Tuesday night, I bought an iPhone 5 (16 GB), installed FF and downloaded all the data for the Great Lakes area, and then yesterday I flew IFR with the iPad and only the iPhone for backup. Great!

But I noticed that routes and even filed flight plans seem to be stored only on the device used to file them. I filed on the iPad and couldn't access the plan or the briefing on the iPhone. This doesn't seem right, once filed aren't flight plans associated with your account? It seems that should be possible for the developers to implement, and maybe they already have and I've just missed it. There doesn't seem to be a lot of documentation on multi-device usage on their website, and none in the User Guide (that I've seen anyway -- maybe I'm missing something).

A lot of my recreational flying involves taking my bicycle to choice spots and going out on the road for a few hours, carrying my iPad in my knapsack for its GPS and to brief and file from the road. What I'd like to be able to do is leave that bulky thing in the plane when I'm out cyclotouring and just use the iPhone for briefing and filing. Once back at the airport I'd use the more readable iPad to review the briefing without having to enter the route again, send to File and Brief again, etc. Doable or not?
 
Last edited:
Everything is stored on the device, because the assumption is that you won't have a connection while flying.

FF will send the briefing to your email when you file (if you have put your email in the flight plan form of course). It sends both the flight plan, with a wx summary, as well as the full briefing, so you get 2 emails . Then open your email on the iPad. You can file a VFR flight plan to get this done, even if you don't plan to open the flight plan.

You will have to re-enter the route if you want it displayed on the iPad. 1 out of 2 is as good as it gets. :rolleyes:
 
azure said:
I use and love ForeFlight on the iPad
[...]
But I noticed that routes and even filed flight plans seem to be stored only on the device used to file them. I filed on the iPad and couldn't access the plan or the briefing on the iPhone. This doesn't seem right, once filed aren't flight plans associated with your account?
Click to expand...

You use and love the wrong product. WingX recently added the route sharing feature you desire.
 
azure said:
As everyone knows, it's getting harder and harder to come by paper charts and personally, I find it's just too much trouble to physically drive or fly to a pilot store every 56 days to buy a bag of bulky charts just for backup. I use and love ForeFlight on the iPad and rarely refer to paper anymore anyway. I was eligible for a cellphone upgrade on my Verizon plan and so Tuesday night, I bought an iPhone 5 (16 GB), installed FF and downloaded all the data for the Great Lakes area, and then yesterday I flew IFR with the iPad and only the iPhone for backup. Great!

But I noticed that routes and even filed flight plans seem to be stored only on the device used to file them. I filed on the iPad and couldn't access the plan or the briefing on the iPhone. This doesn't seem right, once filed aren't flight plans associated with your account? It seems that should be possible for the developers to implement, and maybe they already have and I've just missed it. There doesn't seem to be a lot of documentation on multi-device usage on their website, and none in the User Guide (that I've seen anyway -- maybe I'm missing something).

A lot of my recreational flying involves taking my bicycle to choice spots and going out on the road for a few hours, carrying my iPad in my knapsack for its GPS and to brief and file from the road. What I'd like to be able to do is leave that bulky thing in the plane when I'm out cyclotouring and just use the iPhone for briefing and filing. Once back at the airport I'd use the more readable iPad to review the briefing without having to enter the route again, send to File and Brief again, etc. Doable or not?
Click to expand...
Welcome aboard! That's why I replaced my Android phone with a iPhone - backup. This morning was the first time in 6+ months I did the weather brief on the iPhone knowing that the plan and the flight would be made on the iPad. Yes it would be a good feature to have but just a nice to have for me. It's going to be a direct IFR flight home so reentry won't be a big deal, a fresher brief will be in order and it has to go into my G430 anyway.

At the rate FF adds features, be sure to communicate your need and don't be surprised if it shows up sooner rather than later.
 
Went paperless when ff came out ,to do the east coast IFR takes about forty lbs of paper and my little liberty is weight sensitive.Either an overnight bag or paper charts.
 
I did a BFR and a IPC on Tuesday morning with my electronic charts for 'back up' . . .and since we were in actual, they did not fail. But they did have temporary problem as I was being vectored until I produced the paper chart. Of course, the instructor was using a full size iPad and was piggybacking off my Stratus for GPS and WX!! So they did not fail.

The time has come for the world to transition - I think everyone needs to learn with paper so there is that basic competency with knowing where you are on a chart . . . basic situational awareness - but there is alot to be said for geo-referenced charts and approach plates . . .especially in the soup. You have so many backups for the basic gut check - wtf am I . . . not much excuse for being lost these days -
 
I will say one thing - and its a strange feature I've asked for from FF - a pop-up count up and down timer. I understand why they would not have a timer automatically count down when you cross the FAF [which would be an awesome feature but really hard to program] it would be nice to see a pop up timer so you can count down the time to the missed where appropriate . ..
 
comanchepilot said:
I will say one thing - and its a strange feature I've asked for from FF - a pop-up count up and down timer. I understand why they would not have a timer automatically count down when you cross the FAF [which would be an awesome feature but really hard to program] it would be nice to see a pop up timer so you can count down the time to the missed where appropriate . ..
Click to expand...

Why a timer if it knows where you are at and could present a visual alert when you've come to the MAP?
 
Jim Logajan said:
Why a timer if it knows where you are at and could present a visual alert when you've come to the MAP?
Click to expand...

because approach plates require you to start a timer to ascertain the MAP - it seems like you need to satisfy the rules at least technically . . .
 
Jim Logajan said:
You use and love the wrong product. WingX recently added the route sharing feature you desire.
Click to expand...

Garmin Pilot keeps them synced, too. Flew with a client tonight that used WingX. Very non-intuitive interface compared to FF, GP or FlyQ. Switching approach plates for different airports on the fly was impossible. Very frustrating. After seeing the chart overlay in FF he's going to switch.
 
comanchepilot said:
because approach plates require you to start a timer to ascertain the MAP - it seems like you need to satisfy the rules at least technically . . .
Click to expand...

And it would be useful in holds. I use that feature with GP a lot and like it. Want it in FF, tooM
 
DGlaeser said:
Everything is stored on the device, because the assumption is that you won't have a connection while flying.
Click to expand...
I don't get the "because", sounds like a non-sequitur to me. I wouldn't need to access my account while flying, only to get the flight plan/briefing downloaded to my iPad after filing on the iPhone. That would be done on the ground.
FF will send the briefing to your email when you file (if you have put your email in the flight plan form of course). It sends both the flight plan, with a wx summary, as well as the full briefing, so you get 2 emails . Then open your email on the iPad. You can file a VFR flight plan to get this done, even if you don't plan to open the flight plan.
Click to expand...
Yep, I know that it emails you the flight plan and the full briefing in two separate emails. And that kind of makes my point, since it's done by FF (and not DUATS) it seems that it should be able to store that with your account. If Cloud Ahoy can do it with past flights, why can't ForeFlight do it with flight plans?
You will have to re-enter the route if you want it displayed on the iPad. 1 out of 2 is as good as it gets. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I'll bet if enough users clamor for it, FF will add that feature. Even if they can't save the briefings for space reasons (just a guess), the plans can't take much space on the server and once entered on the second device, getting an updated briefing would be a snap.
 
azure said:
I don't get the "because", sounds like a non-sequitur to me. I wouldn't need to access my account while flying, only to get the flight plan/briefing downloaded to my iPad after filing on the iPhone. That would be done on the ground.

Yep, I know that it emails you the flight plan and the full briefing in two separate emails. And that kind of makes my point, since it's done by FF (and not DUATS) it seems that it should be able to store that with your account. If Cloud Ahoy can do it with past flights, why can't ForeFlight do it with flight plans?

I'll bet if enough users clamor for it, FF will add that feature. Even if they can't save the briefings for space reasons (just a guess), the plans can't take much space on the server and once entered on the second device, getting an updated briefing would be a snap.
Click to expand...

Go into preferences and turn on the Download Filed Plans option. I can't test it since I only have one Apple device. Let me know if that works.
 
comanchepilot said:
because approach plates require you to start a timer to ascertain the MAP - it seems like you need to satisfy the rules at least technically . . .
Click to expand...
Hmm... I like this idea too. Have to request it.

Thanks everyone for the replies. To answer a point or two that were raised: I don't care for the WingX interface, at least when I tried it a year ago before committing to FF. It seemed kludgy and unintuitive. I've never tried Garmin Pilot, though I've safety piloted a couple times for someone that uses it and it looks very nice. But I'm not about to pay for two apps that do essentially the same thing, and anyway I'd rather see FF rise to the challenge posed by the competition.
 
LDJones said:
Go into preferences and turn on the Download Filed Plans option. I can't test it since I only have one Apple device. Let me know if that works.
Click to expand...
Wow, that looks like exactly what I was looking for, doesn't it? :goofy:

Except... I tried it, and it doesn't work as expected. :mad2: I was able to download all of my REALLY OLD flight plans to the iPhone (those that are at least 5 days old), but not the one I filed yesterday. I tried filing one just now from the iPhone and then tried to download it to the iPad, but no joy. All I get is a duplicate of the last plan that I filed on the iPad. Interestingly, if I delete the plan I just filed on the iPhone, I get it back if I download it, but I do NOT get a duplicate if I re-enable download plans without deleting the most recent. Also, on the iPhone, it re-downloads ALL of my previously filed plans, while on the iPad, it only downloads the most recent one.

This all seems weird, but the bottom line is that it doesn't seem to be useful for transferring a recently filed flight plan from one iDevice to another. :(
 
azure said:
Wow, that looks like exactly what I was looking for, doesn't it? :goofy:

Except... I tried it, and it doesn't work as expected. :mad2: I was able to download all of my REALLY OLD flight plans to the iPhone (those that are at least 5 days old), but not the one I filed yesterday. I tried filing one just now from the iPhone and then tried to download it to the iPad, but no joy. All I get is a duplicate of the last plan that I filed on the iPad. Interestingly, if I delete the plan I just filed on the iPhone, I get it back if I download it, but I do NOT get a duplicate if I re-enable download plans without deleting the most recent. Also, on the iPhone, it re-downloads ALL of my previously filed plans, while on the iPad, it only downloads the most recent one.

This all seems weird, but the bottom line is that it doesn't seem to be useful for transferring a recently filed flight plan from one iDevice to another. :(
Click to expand...

Bummer. Sounds like something FF needs to address. I have to give Garmin credit...they keep everything sync'd between your various devices, including favorite routes, airplane definitions, etc. Step it up, FF!
 
comanchepilot said:
because approach plates require you to start a timer to ascertain the MAP - it seems like you need to satisfy the rules at least technically . . .
Click to expand...
not always. If the approach has another means to ID the VDP and MAP, I usually don't bother to time. I'm not going to trust my groundspeed estimate over what the DME and/or GPS are telling me anyway. Nothing wrong with redundant timing but i can count exactly how many times in 20 years it has been useful (zero).

It's a lot like the idea that if you get a glideslope flag you'll transition to a LOC-only approach on the fly. Not me, if I get any flags I'm going to go missed and sort it out from a comfortable altitude.
 
I emailed Foreflight last night about this and their official answer is that Download Filed Plans is "intended for use when migrating to a new device and not necessarily for use to sync on a day to day basis." They don't have a device-to-device flight plan syncing mechanism right now.

They did mention that you can get the route on another device by emailing the flight to yourself using the "Send To" menu. The email has a link "Open in ForeFlight" which when clicked, automatically loads the route. I guess that's an okay workaround for now, though it's not trivial for me to type an email address on my iPhone (I fat finger the "keys" more often than not -- worse than my last phone for texting).

I gave them a little hint in my last reply that Garmin already has this feature in their app and it would be nice if they did, too. ;)
 
LDJones said:
And it would be useful in holds. I use that feature with GP a lot and like it. Want it in FF, tooM
Click to expand...

I've actually let my 530 and my 60-2 fly the hold for me - at least in training - it does a decent enough job.
 
JHW said:
not always. If the approach has another means to ID the VDP and MAP, I usually don't bother to time. I'm not going to trust my groundspeed estimate over what the DME and/or GPS are telling me anyway. Nothing wrong with redundant timing but i can count exactly how many times in 20 years it has been useful (zero).

It's a lot like the idea that if you get a glideslope flag you'll transition to a LOC-only approach on the fly. Not me, if I get any flags I'm going to go missed and sort it out from a comfortable altitude.
Click to expand...

That's true Jeff . . . . the ones that required timing were the ADF's and a few VOR type approaches . . . with the advent of LPV now it seems like every place that had VOR's and ADF approaches now has a GPS overlay with the pseudo glideslope . . .
 
azure said:
As everyone knows, it's getting harder and harder to come by paper charts and personally, I find it's just too much trouble to physically drive or fly to a pilot store every 56 days
Click to expand...

I just order mine from spruce, from the comfort of my computer, easy really.

Heck, you can even "auto order" them, they charge and ship you a new sectional when they come out.



Oh children of the magenta!
 
Last edited:
NineThreeKilo said:
I just order mine from spruce, from the comfort of my computer, easy really.

Heck, you can even "auto order" them, they charge and ship you a new sectional when they come out.
Click to expand...
That's nice. I had a subscription just like that with Vrotate until a couple of years ago. Then one day my charts didn't arrive, and I tried calling them and found the number had been disconnected.

I know that Spruce carries a lot more than just charts, they probably won't go out of business anytime soon. But the last time I was at PTK, PAC hinted that they would probably be out of the chart business fairly soon because of restrictions from the feds and the market drying up due to the popularity of e-charts. The handwriting is on the wall as far as paper is concerned.

Oh children of the magenta!
Click to expand...
I beg your pardon?
 
comanchepilot said:
I've actually let my 530 and my 60-2 fly the hold for me - at least in training - it does a decent enough job.
Click to expand...

They do a nice job. But, a majority of aircraft still lack those capabilities. Plus, I'm not sure if an examiner on an instrument check ride would let you sit and watch while the airplane does it all.
 
LDJones said:
They do a nice job. But, a majority of aircraft still lack those capabilities. Plus, I'm not sure if an examiner on an instrument check ride would let you sit and watch while the airplane does it all.
Click to expand...
Not saying this is typical, but a friend's kid just took his checkride and the examiner did exactly that. He said he was sure the kid was sharp with the hand-flying right out of training, he wanted to see if it all fell apart when he tried to make use of the automation.
 
If the airplane is equipped with an autopilot, you are supposed to show the use of it during high workload - hold prepping for an approach qualifies, and one of the approaches has to be flown coupled.
Handflown precision, coupled non-precision, and handflown partial panel non-precision
 
Well one thing I won't miss is spending hours pulling plates out of yellow Jepp envelopes and putting them into the binders, I lied. I do miss sitting down with the 6 pack of beer that it took to complete the task. ;)

Give me the magenta line any day.
 
Marauder said:
Well one thing I won't miss is spending hours pulling plates out of yellow Jepp envelopes and putting them into the binders, I lied. I do miss sitting down with the 6 pack of beer that it took to complete the task. ;)

Give me the magenta line any day.
Click to expand...

Count me in on that one! I got so tired of that routine that once the FAA improved the layout of NOS charts I made the switch to them to eliminate that chore.
 
ForeFlight's new Flight Alerts feature (Pro version only) will help address flight plan syncing too:

Flight Alerts (Pro Feature)

Our IFR pilots get another productivity enhancer with this release. When you file an IFR flight plan through ForeFlight Mobile, our servers will automatically start listening for updated expected route information. When updated expected route information becomes available, ForeFlight’s servers send that updated route information to all your ForeFlight devices, allowing you to load the updated route information directly into the moving map. We also update the flight plan form, adding the expected route and a link to FlightAware for flight tracking.
Click to expand...
 
LDJones said:
They do a nice job. But, a majority of aircraft still lack those capabilities. Plus, I'm not sure if an examiner on an instrument check ride would let you sit and watch while the airplane does it all.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct. On my last check ride I had to hand fly (1) ILS including a missed and hold and (1) GPS including a missed and hold. All the the automation be dammed. :) To be honest, I find hand-flying more fun.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top