I Understand Aviate, Navigate, Communicate but...

Shawn

Shawn

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Shawn
...if I am in trouble I would think that I would squeeze the button and let out at least a "S#@T!...I'm going down" over the radio at some point.

I am just a bit baffled by all the planes that they just "loose contact" with and just drop off the radar without any sort of mayday call that happens from the big boys to GA.

Yeah there are catastrophic events, high pilot workloads and even straight up panic but I would like to think you would wanna get help rolling ASAP or at least an indication that there is a serious problem.

Then again, I am baffled by pilots that do not use FF whenever they can!
 
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Of course, you need to communicate as soon as possible, but the priority is to stay alive. If you have time to punch the ptt button and let out an "oh sh...", by all means do, but don't perform a CFIT maneuver in the process.
 
I was actually talking on the CTAF when I struck a turkey buzzard. The UNICOM operator knew something was up when my traffic call was interrupted mid-sentence with an expletive and then transmissions stopped.
 
Shawn said:
...if I am in trouble I would think that I would squeeze the button and let out at least a "S#@T!...I'm going down" over the radio at some point.

I am just a bit baffled by all the planes that they just "loose contact" with and just drop off the radar without any sort of mayday call that happens from the big boys to GA.

Yeah there are catastrophic events, high pilot workloads and even straight up panic but I would like to think you would wanna get help rolling ASAP or at least an indication that there is a serious problem.

Then again, I am baffled by pilots that do not use FF whenever they can!
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I'm baffled by the number of news stories that say "No distress call was received" when I know darn well that the last thing on a pilot's mind is talking on the radio. Many, many brain cells taken up by dealing with the emergency.

Bob Gardner
 
under certain scenarios I def agree with you. my cfi used to holler at me when we would practice go-arounds (since I never had to do one for real ;) ;) ) and I'd make my radio call while executing. but I felt like I could easily handle full throttle and ptt at the same time, I saw no need to wait and I still don't. now if for any reason whatsoever I'm overloaded with tasks, radio calls will be temporarily put aside, I'm aware of that.
 
Shawn said:
...if I am in trouble I would think that I would squeeze the button and let out at least a "S#@T!...I'm going down" over the radio at some point.

I am just a bit baffled by all the planes that they just "loose contact" with and just drop off the radar without any sort of mayday call that happens from the big boys to GA.

Yeah there are catastrophic events, high pilot workloads and even straight up panic but I would like to think you would wanna get help rolling ASAP or at least an indication that there is a serious problem.

Then again, I am baffled by pilots that do not use FF whenever they can!
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It depends. There was a piece of interesting research done by the military. Apparently those who issued expletives going into the crash were guys who had screwed themselves and realized their error. Those that had been shot down or broke down transmitted mostly just matter of factly.
 
When my ROTAX got very rough over sparsely populated central GA, I first found the least bad spot and turned towards it.

When not talking to anyone else, I follow the NOTAM and keep my one radio tuned to 121.5.

HUGE advantage in a case like this. All I had to do was mash my PTT and a say "PAHN PAHN"!*

Anyway, not having to fumble with the radio was a big help.

Engine did regain power, but I was glad Atlanta Approach knew I was having issues. Again, spoke with someone after landing, gave details and contact info and no report was requested.


*Seriously, I think I just said my number and "Emergency".
 
If they can't help you, most of the time they can't, keep your mouth shut and die like a man.
 
Sometimes you try and are unable.

I had an alternator disintegrate in flight at night that caused smoke in the cockpit (ALT belt was spinning on a now frozen and off axis pulley). It only took seconds and the battery exploded as well. I transmitted (but was not heard) that I had smoke in the cockpit, as I was simultaneously aviating, navigating, pulling the fire extinguisher, checking gauges and starting to shed electric load ... the battery letting go got my attention again and a new emergency flow started looking for flames - I wanted to vent, but not until I was sure there was no cabin fire and the vents were closed.

Flashlights weren't very helpful. The Iphone light kicks major arse and penetrates smoke very well ... it was the only light onboard that was useful. I was lucky in that I was only 10 miles from the home drome, directly over the highway and inbound when it occurred.

Had a mag fail in a 152 right after passing the departure end of the runway (too low to turn back, unable to climb) at 350 AGL. Announced unable to climb and took it around and landed ... only announced as I would be UNDER everyone in the pattern (it was a full Saturday morning 5 in the pattern practicing). Couldn't get more than 16-1700 RPM out of it.
 
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eman1200 said:
under certain scenarios I def agree with you. my cfi used to holler at me when we would practice go-arounds (since I never had to do one for real ;) ;) ) and I'd make my radio call while executing. but I felt like I could easily handle full throttle and ptt at the same time, I saw no need to wait and I still don't. now if for any reason whatsoever I'm overloaded with tasks, radio calls will be temporarily put aside, I'm aware of that.
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Ever heard of the Law of Exercise? What you normally do is going to be what you do in an emergency. If you're overloaded, you certainly won't be able to do something different.
 
Because it takes time to get off a calm collected matter-of-factly call:
Aaaaa,Approach..aaaaa,this is Airmaster one two four one...aaaaa,settn the fishfinder to seventy-seven hundred there on your radar screen. Mark that spot where I'm gonna put it down in this field, and...aaaaa wait for you to send out aaaaa,a rescue helicopter.
 
Never heard a xsponder called a fishfinder.
 
nosehair said:
Because it takes time to get off a calm collected matter-of-factly call:
Aaaaa,Approach..aaaaa,this is Airmaster one two four one...aaaaa,settn the fishfinder to seventy-seven hundred there on your radar screen. Mark that spot where I'm gonna put it down in this field, and...aaaaa wait for you to send out aaaaa,a rescue helicopter.
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No but "Mayday Mayday We're on fire" shouldn't take away from flying.
We all talk and fly at the same time. Granted I have never seen my life flash in front of my eyes so I am sure it is different.

I think I would sing all the way down.
What's that song by Zepplin about going to California and the plane crashes?

I'd sing that one.
 
eman1200 said:
my cfi used to holler at me when we would practice go-arounds (since I never had to do one for real ;) ;) ) and I'd make my radio call while executing. but I felt like I could easily handle full throttle and ptt at the same time
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MauleSkinner said:
Ever heard of the Law of Exercise? What you normally do is going to be what you do in an emergency.
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It seems this is more of the crux of my point...yes, "communicate" is last in priorities but seems there is a mentality taught that you can only do one thing at a time and only to communicate when you are in straight and level flight after all of your Ts are crossed and Is are dotted and your homework is done while listing to the angelic tunes of Bryan.

Die like a man...screaming all the way down!
 
Most guys don't want to believe something is wrong until it kills them. Then it's too late.
 
Gus Grissom "Fire in cockpit."
 
You can press that button all you want but if the rest of the airplane has departed from you, the cables and antenna are severed from your switch, the communicate option has ended for this flight, along with the navigate and aviate options as well.

This aircraft flew into a thunderstorm, experienced extreme turbulence and broke up. My gosh, this was a ITCZ storm - tops to the moon, lots of fuel, lots of instability, divergence aloft - you don't fly into these if you can at all avoid it.

A PIC needs to deviate if necessary for safety of flight - you TELL ATC what you are doing - you don't ASK. Apparently the way flying is taught these days there is not enough emphasis on the 'In Command' part.
 
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If you have control of the aircraft,you should be able to get a call off. One of the benefits of flight following is you are already talking to someone,and the radio freq. is tuned in.
 
You guys are morbid creeps. Why call if they can't do anything for you?
 
bobmrg said:
I'm baffled by the number of news stories that say "No distress call was received" when I know darn well that the last thing on a pilot's mind is talking on the radio. Many, many brain cells taken up by dealing with the emergency.

Bob Gardner
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But in the movies they always say.........:goofy:
 
Palmpilot said:
So that searchers will have a better idea where to look for you, for one thing.
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Spending less mental energy to quietly flip the ELT remote switch would do far more good(assuming it is a 406.)
 
Humans are very bad at divided attention. Have you ever been looking for a strange address at night and find that you've involuntarily turned down the radio, or stopped talking to your passengers? There is also a tendency to be come fixated, especially when under stress (tunnel vision). So communicating might not even occur to you.
 
I keep thinking back to how Sullenberger and Skiles divided their duties and managed to aviate, navigate, AND communicate. That was some outstanding CRM.

For those of you that fly multiple crew member aircraft: do you find that familiarity with your cockpit-mate would be an advantage in a situation like that, or do you think the biggest advantage is a strong PIC attitude?
 
Matthew said:
I keep thinking back to how Sullenberger and Skiles divided their duties and managed to aviate, navigate, AND communicate. That was some outstanding CRM.

For those of you that fly multiple crew member aircraft: do you find that familiarity with your cockpit-mate would be an advantage in a situation like that, or do you think the biggest advantage is a strong PIC attitude?
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They aren't mutually exclusive issues. Captain sets the tone for how the crew interacts and interrelates.
 
Henning said:
They aren't mutually exclusive issues. Captain sets the tone for how the crew interacts and interrelates.
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There is one leader. The leader decides. The crew follows. CRM works best when the crew feels understood and heard and after the decision is made, just executes.

You cannot have more than one leader in the cockpit - CRM is all well and good and done well and appropriately is additive to safety - but - once the leader makes the call everyone needs to play their role.

I am hoping that the CVR shows some discussion, and the fodder for the PIC grist mill. I truly hope once again we don't have an Asian crew doing what they are told in the face of information telling them not to. . . .
 
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Shawn said:
It seems this is more of the crux of my point...yes, "communicate" is last in priorities but seems there is a mentality taught that you can only do one thing at a time and only to communicate when you are in straight and level flight after all of your Ts are crossed and Is are dotted and your homework is done while listing to the angelic tunes of Bryan.

Die like a man...screaming all the way down!
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When working to regain or keep control of an airplane, or making a flight transition such as a go-around or missed approach, you WILL see degradation in your ability to do so if you try to key the mic and talk as well. I see this very frequently.

Once you're stable, configured, and have your nav plan in place, go ahead and state you're situation, and state it as clearly and concisely as possible, so there's no need for ATC to interrogate you further and distract you more than necessary. A great example is the Thomson bird strike in Manchester, brought to you in living color... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE The relevant part only takes about 35 seconds, and they're still configuring, but they're stable and had a plan.
 
FastEddieB said:
Very pertinent reference.

Thanks.
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Another example is United 232 in Souix City. Haynes, Records, Dvorak, and Fitch managed to save the majority of the crew and pax of their DC-10 with no flight controls other than throttles and two of three engines.

One of the Haynes quotes: Haynes later noted that "We were too busy [to be scared]. You must maintain your composure in the airplane or you will die. You learn that from your first day flying."
 
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MauleSkinner said:
When working to regain or keep control of an airplane, or making a flight transition such as a go-around or missed approach, you WILL see degradation in your ability to do so if you try to key the mic and talk as well. I see this very frequently.
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I don't know;
I've always announced when I was going around --- punching the PTT and saying "Going Around" is a subconcious thing -- like firewalling the carb-heat and throttle. Its not a mental exercise. You just do it, not think about it.

Even when I had a problem lowering my gear, I still subconciously hit the PTT and said, "Got a problem"

yes, details and intentions come later, but the %&)&*^ comes out to give a heads up
 
Matthew said:
Another example is United 232 in Souix City. Haynes, Records, Dvorak, and Fitch managed to save the majority of the crew and pax of their DC-10 with no flight controls other than throttles and two of three engines.

One of the Haynes quotes: Haynes later noted that "We were too busy [to be scared]. You must maintain your composure in the airplane or you will die. You learn that from your first day flying."
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This is a significant point, however I don't think you can learn it, you are either wired that way or not. Not only do you have to maintain composure either, you also have to maintain cognizance, otherwise you just go along for the ride like AF447.
 
Henning said:
This is a significant point, however I don't think you can learn it, you are either wired that way or not. Not only do you have to maintain composure either, you also have to maintain cognizance, otherwise you just go along for the ride like AF447.
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I think you are right. Some of us have "it" some don't. Most of us don't know if we have "it", yet, and do the best we can to not have to find out. A lot of time confidence comes with experience - I'll have to look up the hours in the cockpit of AF447, the AirAsia 850, and United 232.

Haynes did talk about experience and CRM:

"And we had 103 years of flying experience there in the cockpit, trying to get that airplane on the ground, not one minute of which we had actually practiced, any one of us. So why would I know more about getting that airplane on the ground under those conditions than the other three. So if I hadn't used [CRM], if we had not let everybody put their input in, it's a cinch we wouldn't have made it."

Here's a snip from the CVR from United 232:

Fitch: I'll tell you what, we'll have a beer when this is all done.
Haynes: Well I don't drink, but I'll sure as hell have one.

Fitch was the United flight instructor who happened to be on board and helped out in the cockpit. There is interesting insight to these two comments, there is no resignation, no "IF we make it".

A later comment from Fitch, afterward: "For the 30 minutes I was up there, I was the most alive I've ever been. That is the only way I can describe it to you."
 
You dont find out how you are wired until you are looking directly at death. There are two reaction types, calmy accept the situation and work through it with a mental speed about 10xs that of normal, or you disconnect. Yee ha, my ride to Ensenada just showed.
 
Henning said:
You dont find out how you are wired until you are looking directly at death. There are two reaction types, calmy accept the situation and work through it with a mental speed about 10xs that of normal, or you disconnect. Yee ha, my ride to Ensenada just showed.
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I believe in this 100% and work in a field that requires the calm fast reaction type.

I think an easy test is, " how do you react to moderate to high stress?". If you're 8 year old comes into the kitchen from outside crying and displaying a DEFINITE compound fracture and you remain calm and handle things ... you're probably the first example. If you're the type to throw fuel on the fire reacting like a ninny ... probably don't do well under stress.

The other poster that replied about performing as you have exercised is also spot on ....
 
denverpilot said:
Or your body.
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While that's true, searchers do occasionally find a live one.

CAP had a recent save in the high Sierra in August, that would have been a still-ongoing recovery mission if the pilot hadn't made DANG sure people could find him.

That guy did everything right but inspect his prop sufficiently prior to takeoff (and it's not clear if that was possible), and fly over some really bad terrain near Mt. Whitney. August is sufficiently late in the season there to have to deal with below-freezing temperatures at night.

Let people know where you are or you turn the possibility of nasty death into a much more certain prospect, even if you survive the crash. This guy almost certainly would have been unable to walk out, as he had multiple broken bones. I'm amazed he was able to get out of the aircraft, but I guess adrenaline will work for a short time.
 
If you're really focused on flying the plane, talking on the radio is really not a priority. Not to mention if you're in a two pilot cockpit trying to troubleshoot an issue in a huge jet while in IMC in moderate to severe turbulence. Makes sense to me.
 
jcepiano said:
If you're really focused on flying the plane, talking on the radio is really not a priority. Not to mention if you're in a two pilot cockpit trying to troubleshoot an issue in a huge jet while in IMC in moderate to severe turbulence. Makes sense to me.
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Be real careful. I know the area around where you fly.

It's all too possible to handle the emergency, fly the plane successfully, make a survivable emergency landing, and then die because no one knows where you are. Assuming you'll be able to walk out of the crash is not good. Maybe you can, but you'll be disoriented and possibly injured, and there are some very remote places in California, even within a few miles of the city. As you fly out of CCR, try to imagine an emergency landing in the watershed 10 miles directly west of the field, for instance.
 
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