I should probably turn in my certificate.

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
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30,289
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Michigan
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Display name:
White Chocolate
Yesterday it was a perfect day for flying: High pressure, cool weather, clear skies, winds less than 5 knots. What better day than yesterday to introduce someone to general aviation? I left work an hour early, headed to the airport in the Corvette, and opened up the hangar door to shine some much needed light on the Comanche. I opened up the cowl, checked the new valve cover gaskets for any evidence of leaks, of which there were none, performed the rest of my walk around, added a quart of oil, and before I pulled 7DS out of the hangar, I checked the fuel tanks.

Both tips were full, the left one was full, but the right one was not. I thought that was odd, since I always burn off both the mains at the same time, and on my last flight, I had topped off the plane, flown for an hour or so at reduced power, and put it away. With the new fuel valve put in, the tanks always equalize after sitting for a while, so I thought that the plane might have been listing to the left, and that gravity had unbalanced the tanks. Then I thought there would be fuel stains on the floor below the vent tube, but that was not the case. Odd. The plane wasn't leaning to the left either. I checked the fuel valve, and sure enough it was set to left off, and right main on. Well that explains the fuel imbalance, no big deal, I'll just open the left valve and let them equalize. So, I did.

With the preflight complete, I pulled the plane out of the hangar when a hangar neighbor, John, stopped by. I asked where he was going, since I saw his Cessna pulled out his hangar a few doors down, and he stated he was just going to fl around the patch. He then asked me if I had an extra fuel tester, as he couldn't find his, and so I let him borrow mine. With John's plane being out, I hadn't pulled the Comanche out as far as I normally do since he would have to taxi past my hangar to get to the main taxiway to take his turn around the patch. John went back to do his fuel testing, and I pulled the Vette into the hangar and started to close the hangar door. Nope, didn't crunch the tail - I know you were thinking it. I knelt under the door as I closed it, and it just didn't look like it was going to clear the tail, so I pulled 7DS out a wee bit further and then finshed the job with the door, and locked it up.

I walked back down to John's hangar and got my fuel tester, chatted for a minute and then walked back down the 3-4 hangar doors to my plane. I button the baggage compartment up and just as I am about to climb into the plane, I get a phone call from a number I don't know, and answer it. Turns out to be someone asking if I was interested in playing in a softball tournament on Saturday. We talked for a couple minutes about ball and the upcoming season, and I said I was probably going to enjoy the last weekend I have no committments until July, but I would let him know either way in the morning. I then called my friend Steve, and let him know I was on my way to pick him up.

Fuel tanks both on main, breaker check, brake set, mixture full rich, throttle open, prop forward, a few shots of primer, master on, fuel pump on, mags on, start it up. Taxi to the runup area, all systems are go, and off to Ottawa Executive I go. I still like flying in there, since it's where everything started for me eight years ago. For whatever reason I get flight following from Grand Rapids, and rode out some minor bumps from the thermals on the way there. I cancel, enter downwind, and make a B+ landing on 20, and roll all the way to the ramp where Steve is waiting for me.

We talk for a bit, I go inside, use the facilities, and look around at what the new FBO operators have done to the place. We head out to the plane, climb in and I go through the start up procedure, as I did before, with him and explained what everything is, and that there may be some bumps untl we get out over Lake Michigan. We got lucky, as there were no bumps, and we flew over his house as we headed west to the lake. I made a turn to the north, pointed out a few things along the lakeshore, and we cruised at about 1600' AGL towards Muskegon. I asked if he wanted to continue up to Ludington to get a bite to eat, or just circle around here and go back. He was cool with Ludington, so I said no problem and told him he could have the controls.

He did just fine on the controls, and since we'd be transiting Muskegon, I got radar services from them, and we just cruised at 2300 and 20" on the 40 minute flight to Ludington. Steve is a boater so he knows everything along the shore up there, and is easily picking out all the landmarks (mostly piers and rivers) along the shoreline. I tried reaching Ted on 122.75 a few times along the way, but to no avail, and I take the controls back from Steve, just in time to make the 45 to downwind and enter the pattern. A+ landing on 26, roll to the ramp, and shut down the plane.

Earlier in the day, I asked my uncle if there were any place good to eat in Ludington, and he suggested Scotty's. Steak, seafood, someplace that sounds perfect for a fly-to destination. FBO is all locked up as it's after hours, but we found a gate, and walked the 3/4 of a mile or so to Scotty's only to find it closed until April 25th. Probbaly because right now is one of the in between tourist season. No snow for the sleds, and fishing hasn't gotten into full swing yet, so we walk back to the plane, and decide we'll just back in Holland. I fly the plane back to Holland at 25" and 2300 at the same altitude we flew up at until Muskegon, and climbed over the top of the D this time, and then flew just offshore at 1000' AGL.

I told Steve I'll turn in right over Lake Macatawa, and we'll fly the length of that and then land at Ottawa Executive. Suddenly, my JPI goes flat on all cylinders and the plane pitches forward. Engine quit. "What the...?!?!" Mixture gets slammed the rest of the way in, and I quick flip both valves to tips. Back to life comes the engine. I check the fuel gauges, left main shows about 1/2 full, right main shows about 1/2 full, and the tips are both pegged full. I start climbing up to a higher altitude (much higher), and I'm trying to figure out what's going on. I had 3 hours of fuel in the main tanks when we started and we're only at the hour and a half mark or so. There is no reason the engine should have quit. Must have been something quirky. I climb up to 3000' AGL or so, and flip back to the mains. Engine quits again. For whatever reason, I flip only the right tank to tip, leave the left on main, and the engine comes back to life.

Ok, well, I know it's an issue with the right tank, but still can't figure out what it is because with all the time talking with George about ball, John about his trip around the patch, Steve at the FBO, the half hour walk, and everything else those tanks should have equalized, and I should have about 10 gallons in each side, and that's close to what the gauges say. I climb up to 5500, and then head to Ottawa Executive. Uneventful landing on 2, and I park the plane. I get out the flashlight and check the right tank. Dry. I check the left tank, about 20 gallons left. Well, the total is correct, it just isn't where I expected it to be.

I apologize profusely to Steve about this, but he was cool with it, and actually impressed that I recovered so quick and the first quit, and actually troubleshot the problem in less than 3 minutes. We went to dinner, and talked about everything, and he's planning on going up with me again whenever I want to go.

Looking back on everything today, even though the tanks do equalize, I do remember that the right tank does always seem to get puleld from at a quicker rate than the left, and on previous flights I would occassionally have to shut the right tank off to get rid of the heavy wing, and then I remembered why I had only flown on the right tank the flight before. When I had topped off the plane, I had shut the left valve off because I filled the right tank first, and didn't want it crossfeeding while I was fueling. I almost fly both mains at once, except for the heavy wing condition, and on my previous flight I never checked the *both* fuel valve positions, only the right one. If the right one is on main, the left one is main, it always is. Except for that flight, because it was one of those local no worry flights - which carried over to this one.
 
It may be un-airmanlike to make such a silly mistake, but it takes a proper airman to not panic and just deal with the consequences. So many accidents are caused not by one complacency-induced error, but several... you managed to break the chain, so give yourself some credit.
 
Hence the term "you gotta be smarter than what you're working with?"

After years of fiddling with various fueling protocols, it's nice to have 95 gallon capacity and ~12gph burn, a totalizer and a selector valve that stays on "both." Pretty hard to screw up that combination, hope I don't figure out a way to do it.

Yesterday it was a perfect day for flying: High pressure, cool weather, clear skies, winds less than 5 knots. What better day than yesterday to introduce someone to general aviation? I left work an hour early, headed to the airport in the Corvette, and opened up the hangar door to shine some much needed light on the Comanche. I opened up the cowl, checked the new valve cover gaskets for any evidence of leaks, of which there were none, performed the rest of my walk around, added a quart of oil, and before I pulled 7DS out of the hangar, I checked the fuel tanks.

Both tips were full, the left one was full, but the right one was not. I thought that was odd, since I always burn off both the mains at the same time, and on my last flight, I had topped off the plane, flown for an hour or so at reduced power, and put it away. With the new fuel valve put in, the tanks always equalize after sitting for a while, so I thought that the plane might have been listing to the left, and that gravity had unbalanced the tanks. Then I thought there would be fuel stains on the floor below the vent tube, but that was not the case. Odd. The plane wasn't leaning to the left either. I checked the fuel valve, and sure enough it was set to left off, and right main on. Well that explains the fuel imbalance, no big deal, I'll just open the left valve and let them equalize. So, I did.

With the preflight complete, I pulled the plane out of the hangar when a hangar neighbor, John, stopped by. I asked where he was going, since I saw his Cessna pulled out his hangar a few doors down, and he stated he was just going to fl around the patch. He then asked me if I had an extra fuel tester, as he couldn't find his, and so I let him borrow mine. With John's plane being out, I hadn't pulled the Comanche out as far as I normally do since he would have to taxi past my hangar to get to the main taxiway to take his turn around the patch. John went back to do his fuel testing, and I pulled the Vette into the hangar and started to close the hangar door. Nope, didn't crunch the tail - I know you were thinking it. I knelt under the door as I closed it, and it just didn't look like it was going to clear the tail, so I pulled 7DS out a wee bit further and then finshed the job with the door, and locked it up.

I walked back down to John's hangar and got my fuel tester, chatted for a minute and then walked back down the 3-4 hangar doors to my plane. I button the baggage compartment up and just as I am about to climb into the plane, I get a phone call from a number I don't know, and answer it. Turns out to be someone asking if I was interested in playing in a softball tournament on Saturday. We talked for a couple minutes about ball and the upcoming season, and I said I was probably going to enjoy the last weekend I have no committments until July, but I would let him know either way in the morning. I then called my friend Steve, and let him know I was on my way to pick him up.

Fuel tanks both on main, breaker check, brake set, mixture full rich, throttle open, prop forward, a few shots of primer, master on, fuel pump on, mags on, start it up. Taxi to the runup area, all systems are go, and off to Ottawa Executive I go. I still like flying in there, since it's where everything started for me eight years ago. For whatever reason I get flight following from Grand Rapids, and rode out some minor bumps from the thermals on the way there. I cancel, enter downwind, and make a B+ landing on 20, and roll all the way to the ramp where Steve is waiting for me.

We talk for a bit, I go inside, use the facilities, and look around at what the new FBO operators have done to the place. We head out to the plane, climb in and I go through the start up procedure, as I did before, with him and explained what everything is, and that there may be some bumps untl we get out over Lake Michigan. We got lucky, as there were no bumps, and we flew over his house as we headed west to the lake. I made a turn to the north, pointed out a few things along the lakeshore, and we cruised at about 1600' AGL towards Muskegon. I asked if he wanted to continue up to Ludington to get a bite to eat, or just circle around here and go back. He was cool with Ludington, so I said no problem and told him he could have the controls.

He did just fine on the controls, and since we'd be transiting Muskegon, I got radar services from them, and we just cruised at 2300 and 20" on the 40 minute flight to Ludington. Steve is a boater so he knows everything along the shore up there, and is easily picking out all the landmarks (mostly piers and rivers) along the shoreline. I tried reaching Ted on 122.75 a few times along the way, but to no avail, and I take the controls back from Steve, just in time to make the 45 to downwind and enter the pattern. A+ landing on 26, roll to the ramp, and shut down the plane.

Earlier in the day, I asked my uncle if there were any place good to eat in Ludington, and he suggested Scotty's. Steak, seafood, someplace that sounds perfect for a fly-to destination. FBO is all locked up as it's after hours, but we found a gate, and walked the 3/4 of a mile or so to Scotty's only to find it closed until April 25th. Probbaly because right now is one of the in between tourist season. No snow for the sleds, and fishing hasn't gotten into full swing yet, so we walk back to the plane, and decide we'll just back in Holland. I fly the plane back to Holland at 25" and 2300 at the same altitude we flew up at until Muskegon, and climbed over the top of the D this time, and then flew just offshore at 1000' AGL.

I told Steve I'll turn in right over Lake Macatawa, and we'll fly the length of that and then land at Ottawa Executive. Suddenly, my JPI goes flat on all cylinders and the plane pitches forward. Engine quit. "What the...?!?!" Mixture gets slammed the rest of the way in, and I quick flip both valves to tips. Back to life comes the engine. I check the fuel gauges, left main shows about 1/2 full, right main shows about 1/2 full, and the tips are both pegged full. I start climbing up to a higher altitude (much higher), and I'm trying to figure out what's going on. I had 3 hours of fuel in the main tanks when we started and we're only at the hour and a half mark or so. There is no reason the engine should have quit. Must have been something quirky. I climb up to 3000' AGL or so, and flip back to the mains. Engine quits again. For whatever reason, I flip only the right tank to tip, leave the left on main, and the engine comes back to life.

Ok, well, I know it's an issue with the right tank, but still can't figure out what it is because with all the time talking with George about ball, John about his trip around the patch, Steve at the FBO, the half hour walk, and everything else those tanks should have equalized, and I should have about 10 gallons in each side, and that's close to what the gauges say. I climb up to 5500, and then head to Ottawa Executive. Uneventful landing on 2, and I park the plane. I get out the flashlight and check the right tank. Dry. I check the left tank, about 20 gallons left. Well, the total is correct, it just isn't where I expected it to be.

I apologize profusely to Steve about this, but he was cool with it, and actually impressed that I recovered so quick and the first quit, and actually troubleshot the problem in less than 3 minutes. We went to dinner, and talked about everything, and he's planning on going up with me again whenever I want to go.

Looking back on everything today, even though the tanks do equalize, I do remember that the right tank does always seem to get puleld from at a quicker rate than the left, and on previous flights I would occassionally have to shut the right tank off to get rid of the heavy wing, and then I remembered why I had only flown on the right tank the flight before. When I had topped off the plane, I had shut the left valve off because I filled the right tank first, and didn't want it crossfeeding while I was fueling. I almost fly both mains at once, except for the heavy wing condition, and on my previous flight I never checked the *both* fuel valve positions, only the right one. If the right one is on main, the left one is main, it always is. Except for that flight, because it was one of those local no worry flights - which carried over to this one.
 
Glad you figured it out quickly. How much altitude did you loose? I ask b/c I'm thinking about Michaels concern regarding you low level flight over the lake a week or two ago. I guess you don't have a "both switch in the comanche?
 
Don't be so hard on yourself. Check list, and less distractions on preflight. Lesson learned.
 
Don't be so hard on yourself. Check list, and less distractions on preflight. Lesson learned.

Roger that! ...and lessons learned (or confirmed) by the guys you shared it with, thanks!
 
Glad you figured it out quickly. How much altitude did you loose? I ask b/c I'm thinking about Michaels concern regarding you low level flight over the lake a week or two ago. I guess you don't have a "both switch in the comanche?

Interesting that you connect this story with Michael's concern. It's a good reminder to all of us to "straighten up and fly right." Ya just never know when things might go south no matter how diligent we think we might be...
 
Bet that got your attention!

Always learning, aren't we?
 
Wow, that shows how well you know your plane! To fix, then diagnose that problem so quickly is very impressive. I guess you know it a bit better than when you told me "I've only had it for 2 weeks" when I hopped in :yesnod:
 
The "distractions" before the preflight had nothing to do with it. There were no distractions during the preflight. A checklist would not have done anything for the flight on Friday - as the fuel gauges were not indicating in accordance with what was in the tanks - plus it was a cruise portion of flight, where it's just monitor monitor monitor - which was being done.

The flight where I was low over the water I was ready for an engine out, because of the altitude. This flight I wasn't worried about it because I had a thousand feet (over a minute) to worry about it. The other interesting difference is that when I have dry tanked in the past (on purpose) the engine will hesitate slightly once or twice before fully exhausting, but I was also only drawing from one tank at the time. When drawing from two tanks at once on Friday, there was no hesitation, it was just bam, quiet.

Altitude loss...I dunno, less than 50 feet.
 
I'll be glad to use your plane for you until you decide you're safe again. ;)

Sounds like you did a fine job dealing with the issue quickly in the air. I can only hope to react and diagnose that fast if anything ever happens to me.
 
Just remember everyone flamed me for pointing out the hazard in Ed's low altitude flight. In and of itself, no. Coupled to a complex fuel system (sounds complex to me) and things can get dicey fast. No certificates should be surrendered, but we shouldn't grow complacent either.
 
Just a matter of adopting a procedure that prevents it. I don't use paper checklists but I do use a verbal one and that includes verifying the position of fuel valves and making sure they make sense.

Controls
Instruments
Gas
Altimeter
Runup

Works for me. I also do a flow across the cockpit and touch every component and make sure it is making sense. Does not take very long at all. When I'm doing this I tend to catch the most issues plus it's nice for an IMC departure because I set as much stuff on the panel as I can to help me if things go south.
 
Just remember everyone flamed me for pointing out the hazard in Ed's low altitude flight. In and of itself, no. Coupled to a complex fuel system (sounds complex to me) and things can get dicey fast. No certificates should be surrendered, but we shouldn't grow complacent either.


Michael they debated with you perhaps they challanged you but they didn't flame you.
 
Jesse,

Wouldn't the Altimeter in your CIGAR be an instrument?

Jean

Just a matter of adopting a procedure that prevents it. I don't use paper checklists but I do use a verbal one and that includes verifying the position of fuel valves and making sure they make sense.

Controls
Instruments
Gas
Altimeter
Runup

Works for me. I also do a flow across the cockpit and touch every component and make sure it is making sense. Does not take very long at all. When I'm doing this I tend to catch the most issues plus it's nice for an IMC departure because I set as much stuff on the panel as I can to help me if things go south.
 
Jesse,

Wouldn't the Altimeter in your CIGAR be an instrument?

Jean
Yeah. Some people use attitude. Which I consider an instrument too :)

I actually use the altimeter part not to make sure its set properly but to make myself mentally aware of the point on the altimeter where I would consider turning back to the airport. (varies with airport, airplane, wind, etc). Sometimes the only option is to plow straight ahead into hostile terrain. I tell myself that in advance so that there is no question.

So, more or less, the altimeter serves as a pre-takeoff emergency briefing.
 
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I use CFIT in a simple airplane for simple VFR flight:

Controls
Fuel
Instruments
Trim

This is after a runup, of course, which I don't have an acronym for, since it's so darn simple:
Mags, Carb heat, Idle

CFIT has helped me remember to check trim more than once.
 
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