I pressed ahead when I should not have

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
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I was watching (another) re-run episode of Plane Extreme, when the boss (with over 700 deliveries) consoles Dave that he made the right choice by not continuing the flight by saying "There are times I've pressed forward when I should not have."

This is an arguable statement since he's still alive to talk about it.

Is there such a thing as mission complete, yet the mission should have been aborted?
 
Yes. If you get to where you're one link in the accident chain from death and you are **** out of options..just riding on "luck"...then you pressed too far.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Is there such a thing as mission complete, yet the mission should have been aborted?
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Yes, happens all the time.

It's when you were able to complete the mission, but in hindsight you realize how close to disaster or death you might have come and realize that the mission accomplishment was not worth the risk you took. You could call it Reverse Risk Management.
 
I remember a way experience pilot telling me "Hope and luck are not something you ever want to rely on in aviation."
 
Everyone wants to jump to the "cheated death" stories. At a more mundane level, you'll make a lot of trips where you'll find yourself saying later "if we would have waited till the next morning we'd have had a smoother ride or better winds or a more direct routing or..."
 
Flying commercially it's very seldom that it's legal and we don't go. The key for me is to always have 'outs'. I'm always looking for outs. On a recent trip to TEB the headwinds were more than forecast and it cut into our reserves. I pressed on and landed with only about 30 min of fuel. But I was checking all airports along the way and they were all 3,000'ish ceilings. Point is we had outs. If the plane in front of us got disabled on the runway we still had fuel to come back to the other runway or last ditch make it to EWR under the layer. Wouldn't have been pretty but it was an out and we would have landed with the motors running. Might have had to get towed to the FBO though...

If the ceilings were lower then we would have just stopped and got more gas since that would have negated my 'out'.
 
Captain said:
Flying commercially it's very seldom that it's legal and we don't go. The key for me is to always have 'outs'. I'm always looking for outs. On a recent trip to TEB the headwinds were more than forecast and it cut into our reserves. I pressed on and landed with only about 30 min of fuel
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If I was paying for a chartered flight and they told me we'd be landing with 30 minutes of fuel I'd gladly pay for them to get more. Too close for my comfort level.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I was watching (another) re-run episode of Plane Extreme, when the boss (with over 700 deliveries) consoles Dave that he made the right choice by not continuing the flight by saying "There are times I've pressed forward when I should not have."

This is an arguable statement since he's still alive to talk about it.

Is there such a thing as mission complete, yet the mission should have been aborted?
Click to expand...


Yes, I have had several, it's part of the learning curve where we trade luck for experience. Luck is nice to have but poor to stake your life on. The key is to recognize when you lucked out and don't put yourself there again.

There have been several flight where I have said to my self "you have ****ed this up, FMD...", there was only one where I was pretty convinced I was not going to survive.
 
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As has been stated already.

One time in particular I got myself boxed into thunnderstorms at night. Ended up landing in rain so hard, I couldn't see the rinway, just lights on the side. Lightnine all around, and a full on storm straight ahead if we had to go around. We had to sit on the runway about 5 minutes for the rain to subside enough to taxi in.

I convinced myself the storms weren't doing what they were doing, got impatient, and went.

Tony called after I landed.

"Hi Ted, how are you?"
"Alive"
"Was that in question?"
"5 minutes ago, I wasn't certain I would be..."
 
Captain said:
Flying commercially it's very seldom that it's legal and we don't go. The key for me is to always have 'outs'. I'm always looking for outs. On a recent trip to TEB the headwinds were more than forecast and it cut into our reserves. I pressed on and landed with only about 30 min of fuel. But I was checking all airports along the way and they were all 3,000'ish ceilings. Point is we had outs. If the plane in front of us got disabled on the runway we still had fuel to come back to the other runway or last ditch make it to EWR under the layer. Wouldn't have been pretty but it was an out and we would have landed with the motors running. Might have had to get towed to the FBO though...

If the ceilings were lower then we would have just stopped and got more gas since that would have negated my 'out'.
Click to expand...

You are also flying a very capable and efficient airplane. Can I get a job with you guys? I'm local, I'd be the best FO you ever had. I come with references.
 
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I remember a very recent political campaign that include "hope and change is not a strategy."
Matthew said:
I remember a way experience pilot telling me "Hope and luck are not something you ever want to rely on in aviation."
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jesse said:
If I was paying for a chartered flight and they told me we'd be landing with 30 minutes of fuel I'd gladly pay for them to get more. Too close for my comfort level.
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I took off with more. I use an hour reserves when planing to the NY area to account for the early let downs expected. But normally we get descended around KRIC. This time they dropped us at KRDU. Added to that winds were greater than forecast. Put me in an unexpected bind.

If the weather was worse then we'd have stopped short for fuel. But having 'outs' we pressed on.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like burning into my reserves. But under the right conditions it can be done safely. Legally, as long as you plan to have required reserves and as long as the engines are under power when you land you're in good shape.

Where people get into trouble is when a new plan gets made in the air. If you elect to change your destination enroute then that's a new plan and all the requirements apply...legal alternates if applicable and reserve fuel. Notams and weather. The whole shebang.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I was watching (another) re-run episode of Plane Extreme, when the boss (with over 700 deliveries) consoles Dave that he made the right choice by not continuing the flight by saying "There are times I've pressed forward when I should not have."

This is an arguable statement since he's still alive to talk about it.

Is there such a thing as mission complete, yet the mission should have been aborted?
Click to expand...

IMHO it all depends on the object of the mission. I have pressed on many times in conditions where I would have turned back except for those who expected us to show up.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
IMHO it all depends on the object of the mission. I have pressed on many times in conditions where I would have turned back except for those who expected us to show up.
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Henning said:
Yes, I have had several, it's part of the learning curve where we trade luck for experience. Luck is nice to have but poor to stake your life on. The key is to recognize when you lucked out and don't put yourself there again.

There have been several flight where I have said to my self "you have ****ed this up, FMD...", there was only one where I was pretty convinced I was not going to survive.
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You caught Foot and Mouth Disease up there too? Damn, this Aviating is a dangerous pursuit....
 
If you liked dog-vomit FO pay, why did you leave the other job doing the same thing?

Will your former employer for training class plus two weeks on the line be one of the references?

Henning said:
You are also flying a very capable and efficient airplane. Can I get a job with you guys? I'm local, I'd be the best FO you ever had. I come with references.
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Dave Krall CFII said:
You caught Foot and Mouth Disease up there too? Damn, this Aviating is a dangerous pursuit....
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"F- Me Dead" Australia's greatest contribution to the phrases and constructions that make up the English language; it is used as a verbal punctuation, a declared exclamation point.
 
wabower said:
If you liked dog-vomit FO pay, why did you leave the other job doing the same thing?

Will your former employer for training class plus two weeks on the line be one of the references?
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No, Bob Gerace and other members of these boards that I have a few to many Hours and flights with. One has been my CFI/I who has been providing me BFRs and IPCs at his expense in the best TAA retrofit gear available at the time and on trips that span quite a few hours where you have all that time to fill. Bob can fill you in on exactly what my capabilities and qualities in a two crew situation as PNF in an Emergency situation involving hypoxia and how I managed to recognize and fix a control issue for him unbidden allowing him to stabilize the situation and securing the OEI situation for further flight with the flick of the AP disconnect switch. We were both running on three switches out of ten and between us we managed to calmly pull it out of our asses. You can read his telling on the Red Board.

Those are the kind of references I have.
 
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Threefingeredjack said:
Spend a few thousand hours flying SAR and you will understand.
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Gotcha, thought you might have been running late for a dinner date or something.

I helped out looking for an Arrow that went down once, it was CAVU and 10 miles from home, that pretty much sums up my SAR experience. Sort of glad I wasn't the one that found them (4 fatal).
 
None of that would have mattered when I was hiring 135 crews. Make/model experience, PIC M/E turbine, type ratings and other qualifications were much more important than subjective commentary. Maybe things have changed, but kinda doubt it.



Henning said:
No, Bob Gerace and other members of these boards that I have a few to many Hours and flights with. One has been my CFI/I who has been providing me BFRs and IPCs at his expense in the best TAA retrofit gear available at the time and on trips that span quite a few hours where you have all that time to fill. Bob can fill you in on exactly what my capabilities and qualities in a two crew situation as PNF in an Emergency situation involving hypoxia and how I managed to recognize and fix a control issue for him unbidden allowing him to stabilize the situation and securing the OEI situation for further flight with the flick of the AP disconnect switch. We were both running on three switches out of ten and between us we managed to calmly pull it out of our asses. You can read his telling on the Red Board.

Those are the kind of references I have.
Click to expand...
 
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