I love my buyer's agent

O

onwards

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onwards
So, I've been looking to buy a plane over the past 8 months or so. Yes, I'm particular, patient and yes, I am definitely fully intending to take advantage of the very soft market. I don't mind waiting for the right distressed sale.

What hasn't worked well for me, though, is the search itself. I don't have that much time to dedicate to it, which makes it a difficult proposition. I did find one plane a few months ago I liked, made a decent offer, the seller refused in a huff. Well, she came back a few months later and accepted my renewed offer after having had months of fake buyers ("oh, I just need to wait for loan approval" or "I'll come down and fly your plane and if it checks out I'll buy it in cash", and so on). I'm a cash buyer. It helps.

A couple days later she recanted her approval, but over all this time I had developed a great working relationship with the broker who had the listing. Well, turns out that he also acts as a buyers agent. So I hired him.

Now I have someone looking for planes for me. Found one within a week. We made an offer (accepted), but this is where he really has proven himself. While we were working through the process, he sniffed around the airport where the plane was located by taking to a colleague based there, who connected him with a mechanic who worked on the plane in question. He called me a couple days ago. Turns out the plane's owner had been cutting corners for the past couple of years - a lot. The mechanic suggested this might not be a good buy. We pulled out.

So he's out there looking - I get weekly updates, and not only stuff that comes on the online sites, but things coming in through the dealer networks, personal contacts and so on. I can react much more quickly as a result when the right plane shows up. His reach is much more extensive than mine. And he's watching my back, too. His fee has already paid for itself.

And if there is one thing I've learned after having been in contract twice already - no getting excited till I fly it off. Lots of pitfalls out there!
 
I hope not to offend, but it is my considered opinion after a decade of aircraft ownership that if you don't have time to shop for an aircraft, you haven't time to own one either.
 
steingar said:
I hope not to offend, but it is my considered opinion after a decade of aircraft ownership that if you don't have time to shop for an aircraft, you haven't time to own one either.
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So tell us what you feel the "shopping" process entails and how it compares to the ownership process. Please share your personal experiences with the airplane shopping process and how they pertain to the ownership process.

I understand what the OP means when he says he doesn't have time to shop and those things that require his time in the shopping process don't exist in the ownership process. I didn't choose to use a buyer's agent when I went through the shopping and purchase process for my plane but I can easily see where a buyer's agent can add value for a busy individual or first time buyer.
 
steingar said:
I hope not to offend, but it is my considered opinion after a decade of aircraft ownership that if you don't have time to shop for an aircraft, you haven't time to own one either.
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Sure, there is a time commitment to being an owner. But have you looked at for sale ads lately? An awful lot of the asking prices I see would have been considered optimistic 6 to 8 years ago, much less today. A person could waste half a lifetime just trying to find a serious seller. And there are lots of ads by brokers/dealers that tell you more about the plane they're trying to sell by what they leave out of the ad than what they put in the ad. I think it's reasonable to pay a fee to have someone sort out the wheat from the chaff.
 
steingar said:
I hope not to offend, but it is my considered opinion after a decade of aircraft ownership that if you don't have time to shop for an aircraft, you haven't time to own one either.
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One exception is: having a broker really familar with the particular make/model you want. Having owned my cherokee for 18 years, I'm pretty confident I know what to look for if I was going to buy another cherokee. I also realize how little I really know about all the other aircraft out there.
 
I used a buyers agent for my first aircraft purchase and I still believe it was worth it. I was very particular in what I wanted and he found it through his contacts, not TAP/ASO/etc. He knew what to look for during prebuy and inspection and saved me from an airplane in CA that ended up being scrapped. The closing was very professional as well. Worth every penny.
 
Again, I honestly don't mean to cause offense, but discussion. A buyer's agent who specializes in an aircraft type and can use inside information and find and examine an aircraft sounds like a very good idea. However, the OP did not say that's why he was employing one. He said he didn't have the time to shop for an aircraft. And I repeat, it is my own opinion that if you havne't the time to shop for one you haven't the time to own one.
 
Please share some specifics and educate the OP on how owning will require similar time expenditures as the shopping process. It's easy to state you have an opinion but what good is it with no facts to support it?
 
pilot117 said:
Please share some specifics and educate the OP on how owning will require similar time expenditures as the shopping process. It's easy to state you have an opinion but what good is it with no facts to support it?
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How long does it take to wash and wax an aircraft? To shovel the snow after a storm? Clean out the hangar? Fill the tires, change the oil? Are you going to participate in it's maintenance? And on top of all that you have the fly the thing.

I think the owners here spend a lot more time maintaining and flying their aircraft than the shoppers do shopping for it. I've seen some of their aircraft, and it certainly looks that way.
 
Its a lot easier to escape to the hangar for an hour or two on a weeknight once a week than it is to arrange a pre-buy at a distant airport, delve through logbooks, contact old mechanics, and work out a purchase agreement.
 
Michael, I think you're off base here. To buy an airplane while minimizing risk of it being a "lemon" requires either:
A TON of free time to do all the work yourself; or
A significant amount of knowledge and extensive network of contacts who you can trust to get into the details of the airplane far away from you (and if you have them, you could probably go into the airplane sales business yourself).

Failing both of these, hiring someone in the second category can be a good deal, particularly if you don't want the search to take forever.

I helped a friend look for an airplane. Over the course of a month I put in at least 60 hours of time, and she put in more, on the phone/web/mail to find the Archer she finally decided to make an offer on.

In the years since the maintenance has consisted of squawking things as they came up and having the trusted shop take care of it. Much less effort in my opinion, though it can be just as frustrating when the inevitable delays or "discoveries of new problems" come up.
 
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Yeah, I'm really not sure about the whole "if you don't have time to shop, you shouldn't own" thing.

I fly a lot (commercially) on business. I will be replacing quite a bit of that flying the plane myself (my company will own it). I fly recreationally too, and right now I have extra stuff that takes my time doing so (such as the 6-month club checkouts, even if I've flown the planes for 60-80 hours during that time and have yet to even bald spot a tire, ever). Maintenance is what mechanics are for. Cleaning is what people who clean planes are for. I hire people to do stuff for me in all aspects of my life, why should this be any different?

And yes, I am a busy first-time buyer. Having now hired an agent, I realize just how much very valuable time I wasted trying to sort through listings and talking to people myself. So many folks out there are borderline schizophrenic - they need to sell their planes because they need money, but they are stuck in a world that no longer exists as far as valuations go. And so they reject perfectly reasonable offers, then sit on their planes, letting them rot due to poor maintenance and lack of flying (they need the money, after all), and then come back to you months later wondering if you'd still buy it because, let's see, nobody serious showed any interest at those prices, but a lot of people got free time behind the yoke of their planes.

It is SO much nicer to have someone deal with this for me. Not to mention that he finds things that I couldn't find cause they are not online.
 
dell30rb said:
Its a lot easier to escape to the hangar for an hour or two on a weeknight once a week than it is to arrange a pre-buy at a distant airport, delve through logbooks, contact old mechanics, and work out a purchase agreement.
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That makes buying a plane sound tedious, which it most likely is.
 
It took my co-owners two years to find the aircraft they wanted and I got the lucky side of it not showing up until three years later.

When they found 79M it was literally a viewing and a comment from the mechanic that, "If you don't buy this aircraft the next person who walks in the door will. It's in great shape."

But to find those, you have to be actively looking. Could take a month, could take years...
 
onwards said:
So, I've been looking to buy a plane over the past 8 months or so. Yes, I'm particular, patient and yes, I am definitely fully intending to take advantage of the very soft market. I don't mind waiting for the right distressed sale.

What hasn't worked well for me, though, is the search itself. I don't have that much time to dedicate to it, which makes it a difficult proposition. I did find one plane a few months ago I liked, made a decent offer, the seller refused in a huff. Well, she came back a few months later and accepted my renewed offer after having had months of fake buyers ("oh, I just need to wait for loan approval" or "I'll come down and fly your plane and if it checks out I'll buy it in cash", and so on). I'm a cash buyer. It helps.

A couple days later she recanted her approval, but over all this time I had developed a great working relationship with the broker who had the listing. Well, turns out that he also acts as a buyers agent. So I hired him.

Now I have someone looking for planes for me. Found one within a week. We made an offer (accepted), but this is where he really has proven himself. While we were working through the process, he sniffed around the airport where the plane was located by taking to a colleague based there, who connected him with a mechanic who worked on the plane in question. He called me a couple days ago. Turns out the plane's owner had been cutting corners for the past couple of years - a lot. The mechanic suggested this might not be a good buy. We pulled out.

So he's out there looking - I get weekly updates, and not only stuff that comes on the online sites, but things coming in through the dealer networks, personal contacts and so on. I can react much more quickly as a result when the right plane shows up. His reach is much more extensive than mine. And he's watching my back, too. His fee has already paid for itself.

And if there is one thing I've learned after having been in contract twice already - no getting excited till I fly it off. Lots of pitfalls out there!
Click to expand...

I love the idea of someone being YOUR advocate in the process. When I purchased my first home, someone loaned me a book called "Lambs to the Slaughter", and it was a book to advise first time homebuyers of the pitfalls that can strike the unwary. Since then I've owned 7 more homes, and can go through the process in my sleep, and don't need much outside "expert" advice.

But with respect to aircraft, I'm 52 years old and have only been flying for 7 years - and I rent. I certainly know a lot less than someone who has owned their own plane, or been through the purchasing process. And as with most things, caveat emptor - buyer beware.

So when I go down the purchase road, unless a cherry aircraft suddenly appears at my home airport for sale by someone I know, giftwrapped with a brand new engine and avionics, I'm going to use a professional for help.

Good luck with the process, and let us know how it goes. And if you don't mind me asking, how are buyer's agents compensated?
 
nddons said:
Good luck with the process, and let us know how it goes. And if you don't mind me asking, how are buyer's agents compensated?
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Depends on the agent, of course. But I think it's fairly typical to suggest that it involves a retainer fee to cover the research and expenses for actual travel on your behalf (should it be necessary).
 
If anyone is considering purchasing a C177 Cardinal I strongly suggest they go to the Cardinal Flyers Online site (no connection except as a user) and hire one of the buyers brokers who specialize in Cardinals.

This will save you a ton of time and probably a lot money.

If you can find a broker who specializes in the make and model you're interested in, then at a minimum it's probably a good idea to talk to him or her before you go traveling all over the country looking at airplanes.
 
nddons said:
And if you don't mind me asking, how are buyer's agents compensated?
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My buyers agent charged a one time flat fee. We had a written agreement with what was included for that fee. The trouble he saved me from and then the great price that I paid for the plane I ended up buying more than made up for the fee.
 
I think it sounds like a great idea to get help when you need it. I think, hiring someone knowedgeable in areas you're weak is often a good idea when spending significant bucks.

Is aircraft byers agent a legally defined occupation? Are there credentials?

Someone I know, very knowedgeable about light aircraft, suggested that becoming an aircraft broker was a good side business. I've seen appraiser "organizations" but my casual search revealed no recognition of an occupation.
 
I would guess that the skill set involved in owning an airplane is not necessarily the same as the skill set involved in finding a good one and getting a fair price.

As for the time involved, I would think that the time not spent in the search process would allow a person to avoid getting behind on life's other chores, leaving more time for ownership tasks once the plane is acquired.
 
Things I could probably figure out but don't do by myself:

advanced plumbing;

electrical beyond replacing a switch or receptacle;

surgery;

carpet cleaning;

aircraft maintenance;

vehicle maintenance beyond the basics - don't even bother with oil changes any more - but I will replace plugs, filters and wiper blades;

dentistry;

gardening;

pool maintenance.

It'll take me three times as long to do something like carpet cleaning myself, what with renting a machine, buying the chemicals, getting it home, having it leak all over the floor, etc. If I can bill $700-1000 in the three hours it takes me to pi$$ around with this - and it costs me $150 to get my stairs and hallway carpet cleaned once a year . .. am I crazy?

My pool guy is $75 a MONTH. I'm gonna spend an hour a week messing with it when I can be swimming instead?

My Gardener is $100 a month- again - he and his crew take 90min a week to take care of my yard -

When you add the honey dew list to the required chores around the house I'd be doing nothing but working, sleepng and doing chores 168 hours a week . . . there is no point to me working if I have to do all this stuff too - plus - when do I fit in flying?
 
I too think Michael is misinformed about the skillsets required to purchase vs. those to own. The commonalities are few and the differences are many.

I'm a buyer's agent, but specialize in bigger airplanes and only work on singles and twins when special situations arise. The reason is purely economic, since the time required to find, negotiate and close the sale of a jet or turboprop is the same (or usually less) than for a Saratoga or some other single and the pay is much better. The reasons that less time is required are because the likely suspects are easier to identify and quantify and because I'm not required to deal with the wing-nut owners who are totally out of touch with the market.

The type of plane being purchased, however, has very little to do with the issues that surround the acquisition process, and while all deals share many of the same elements, they all seem to include some wild-card head-scratcher that must be resolved. No rocket surgery is required, but some experience, resourcefulnes and ability to think on one's feet (or maybe with them) is handy.
 
steingar said:
I hope not to offend, but it is my considered opinion after a decade of aircraft ownership that if you don't have time to shop for an aircraft, you haven't time to own one either.
Click to expand...

That's highly dependent on the persons situation. Two major issues, first off some people are busy with lives/jobs and have a mission for a aircraft, in fact the more seriously they have a mission for a plane the less spare time they typically have. Second off is knowledge of the machines and the time it takes to acquire that knowledge. For some people a plane is a tool not a toy. If one is a dilettante without the time to do ones research, one can screw oneself pretty badly. All the agent has to do is spot one thing you missed in the deal and they have paid their fee.
 
steingar said:
How long does it take to wash and wax an aircraft? To shovel the snow after a storm? Clean out the hangar? Fill the tires, change the oil? Are you going to participate in it's maintenance? And on top of all that you have the fly the thing.

I think the owners here spend a lot more time maintaining and flying their aircraft than the shoppers do shopping for it. I've seen some of their aircraft, and it certainly looks that way.
Click to expand...

All of those services can be bought though. Not everyone's situation is equal. You can keep your plane with an FBO that will take care of everything for you. They'll have it ready and waiting when you arrive and you pull up in front of the door when you get back and they put it away for you, if you want a wash and wax, no worries.
 
steingar said:
I hope not to offend, but it is my considered opinion after a decade of aircraft ownership that if you don't have time to shop for an aircraft, you haven't time to own one either.
Click to expand...

Strange observation from a guy who won his airplane, just sayin' :wink2:
 
Henning said:
Second off is knowledge of the machines and the time it takes to acquire that knowledge.
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That's the key right there.

A buyer has a mission. They want an airplane that'll get them places at 3 miles per minute, for example. Bonanza? Mooney? There's other options, too... But finding the right airplane when you haven't even decided on a particular type could be a real bear. What year(s) are the best for the mission? What options were available from the factory, when? What modifications are available/desirable/necessary? That's the kind of thing a buyer's agent should know (and/or learn in the process), and that's what you pay 'em for.

I know a lot about Twin Comanches, because I'd really like to own one someday and I'm kind of a geek about that sort of thing. I've been learning a LOT about Mooneys so that I can most effectively sell the one that I'm currently marketing (and I'm kind of a geek about that sort of thing too! :rofl:)

I think it'd actually be really fun to be a buyer's agent - I'm the kind of guy that loves to learn about things until I have an encyclopedic knowledge of them, and that's the sort of thing that can come in very handy. I've actually helped a couple of people that way already, but it's not my primary occupation.
 
To the contrary, learning about the airplanes is relatively simple. Whatever you don't know about the various makes and models is easy to obtain, although it's almost never universally agreed-upon. Unless you intend to be a one-trick pony who specializes in a particular make/model (like some you mentioned) you'll find that acquiring and implementing the skills that are necessary (juggling is an apt description) to get deals done is much more important than anything else.

flyingcheesehead said:
That's the key right there.

A buyer has a mission. They want an airplane that'll get them places at 3 miles per minute, for example. Bonanza? Mooney? There's other options, too... But finding the right airplane when you haven't even decided on a particular type could be a real bear. What year(s) are the best for the mission? What options were available from the factory, when? What modifications are available/desirable/necessary? That's the kind of thing a buyer's agent should know (and/or learn in the process), and that's what you pay 'em for.

I know a lot about Twin Comanches, because I'd really like to own one someday and I'm kind of a geek about that sort of thing. I've been learning a LOT about Mooneys so that I can most effectively sell the one that I'm currently marketing (and I'm kind of a geek about that sort of thing too! :rofl:)

I think it'd actually be really fun to be a buyer's agent - I'm the kind of guy that loves to learn about things until I have an encyclopedic knowledge of them, and that's the sort of thing that can come in very handy. I've actually helped a couple of people that way already, but it's not my primary occupation.
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bit like house shopping isn't it?

sure there are plenty of places you can look for yourself but there also realtors and similar out there who find houses for people every single day. they may even have contacts with people who are looking to sell but just not advertising it for whatever reason.

wouldn't you be amiss to not take advantage of expertise if its available to you?
 
How much do buyer's agents normally charge? Or is this one of those "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" things? :redface:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's the key right there.

A buyer has a mission. They want an airplane that'll get them places at 3 miles per minute, for example. Bonanza? Mooney? There's other options, too... But finding the right airplane when you haven't even decided on a particular type could be a real bear. What year(s) are the best for the mission? What options were available from the factory, when? What modifications are available/desirable/necessary? That's the kind of thing a buyer's agent should know (and/or learn in the process), and that's what you pay 'em for.
Click to expand...

No, not really. Either a person today has enough scratch to by an SR-22 or they don't. Or they can finance and depreciate it through their business.
I know a lot about Twin Comanches, because I'd really like to own one someday and I'm kind of a geek about that sort of thing. I've been learning a LOT about Mooneys so that I can most effectively sell the one that I'm currently marketing (and I'm kind of a geek about that sort of thing too! :rofl:)
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But if you really knew that much about PA-30s or PA-39s, you would know that Twinkies are worth dick today. PA-24s are worth more than Twinkies given the same condition and avionics.

If you're just dying to buy a twin, there are plenty of A & B-55 Barons out there that can be bought for less than a PA-24. Yeah they have those wonky levers - PTM instead of TPM, but hey, if you want to be Sky King you can't be too picky.

I would be working on scrapping Twinkies, but how much is a runout IO-320 worth? If it was an IO-360, you could sell it to a Pitts S1S driver but an IO-320 is pretty much worth dick, like the rest of a PA-30. The only IO-320 that has any value is a left turning one to sell to a PA-39 owner. And that ain't worth much these days, either.

I think it'd actually be really fun to be a buyer's agent - I'm the kind of guy that loves to learn about things until I have an encyclopedic knowledge of them, and that's the sort of thing that can come in very handy. I've actually helped a couple of people that way already, but it's not my primary occupation.
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All due respect, but you're an airplane enthusiast. You will never make a dollar as long as you are.

Please don't think I am a dikwad for saying this, but you haven't expressed a thought that someone else didn't come up with 10 years ago. If you're bongo about Comanches, then hook up with Webco and do something useful like helping them get PMA approval for door handles, door latches and the other parts that wear out. No glamour or glory but that's really doing something useful to preserve the marque.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
How much do buyer's agents normally charge? Or is this one of those "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" things? :redface:
Click to expand...

It depends on what people want. If people are doing their own shopping around and want me to go evaluate the planes, I charge $300 a day + expenses. If they want me to shop for them as well I charge $20hr for that. Usually it ends up between $750 and $2500 depending on travel.
 
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