I hate my airplane sometimes

The Gill in my plane lasted over 5 years and was still working when I replaced it with another Gill. It had been kept on a battery minder so that may have helped the longevity.
 
The Gill in my plane lasted over 5 years and was still working when I replaced it with another Gill. It had been kept on a battery minder so that may have helped the longevity.

My first Gill lasted 10 years the second 5 and the third 4 years. I have heard from others the quality of the Gill is not good today. I just installed a Concord two weeks ago, hope it was worth the change. The Concord was $325 + $80 shipping. I have heard good reports about the battery minder and intend to purchase one in the near future.
 
My first Gill lasted 10 years the second 5 and the third 4 years. I have heard from others the quality of the Gill is not good today. I just installed a Concord two weeks ago, hope it was worth the change. The Concord was $325 + $80 shipping. I have heard good reports about the battery minder and intend to purchase one in the near future.

None of these aviation lead acids are worth the coin, there's literally nothing different inside them vs the same battery bought from Wally World.

But we don't really have a choice, do we? Yay regulations.
 
None of these aviation lead acids are worth the coin, there's literally nothing different inside them vs the same battery bought from Wally World.

But we don't really have a choice, do we? Yay regulations.
I have heard rumors of guys opening sealed concords when they go bad and replacing the two sealed 12 v batteries from napa that are hidden inside of the pretty Grey and purple pma'd battery box.
 
I have heard rumors of guys opening sealed concords when they go bad and replacing the two sealed 12 v batteries from napa that are hidden inside of the pretty Grey and purple pma'd battery box.

LOL. That's pretty desperate but I could see why. In the grand scheme of airplane ownership $300 for a battery is chump change, but it's annoying to know there's nothing different about them.

Just like the alternators that are available at NAPA down the street but don't have a nice FAA tag on them, you just cringe and watch the experimental folks installing better quality tech for 1/4 the price on their ships and wonder why.
 
LOL. That's pretty desperate but I could see why. In the grand scheme of airplane ownership $300 for a battery is chump change, but it's annoying to know there's nothing different about them.

Just like the alternators that are available at NAPA down the street but don't have a nice FAA tag on them, you just cringe and watch the experimental folks installing better quality tech for 1/4 the price on their ships and wonder why.
For 300 dollars I doubt they would have bothered. 2800 that's a little different I guess
 
The same battery from gill is 1500

The concord is normally good for 3-5 years depending on use. Still cheaper than a gill every year

We've gotten six years out of a Gill and are well into the next six on a non-sealed normal ol' lead acid that ran about $350. I'd have to look back a ways in the spreadsheet.

We've talked before that I think climate plays a large factor, especially heat, since that's exactly what manufacturers all say in every lead acid battery application even much tougher ones than airplanes create.

$1200 is asinine. $2800 is "hold a gun to your head aggressive robbery" for something as simple as an SLA battery.

I have fifteen of them in the garage and RV that came out of a datacenter used, that I paid $10/ea for. 75Ah, and they're now a decade old.

Charged and treated correctly for the most part, only three have failed so far. The rest all test out at nearly factory spec for high current draw. I'll let down my load tester testing them before these batteries would fail.

The three that have failed, one is in a hot location and two are in storage in a cold location and weren't always rotated on to the four stage charger when they should have been for self-discharge in the cold. Eight others in that cold environment have done fine. The rest are in a mixed ambient temp environment but when not in use are always kept on a proper tender charger for their rating numbers.

Airplanes are just an excuse to rip people off, I swear. Amazing.
 
If I get a bill for a $3,000 battery, I doth promise thee that you will find a Cherokee with peeling clear coat available at my airfield for sale. Discounted from what I paid for it, despite the 60% again I've spent on fixing.
 
We've gotten six years out of a Gill and are well into the next six on a non-sealed normal ol' lead acid that ran about $350. I'd have to look back a ways in the spreadsheet.

We've talked before that I think climate plays a large factor, especially heat, since that's exactly what manufacturers all say in every lead acid battery application even much tougher ones than airplanes create.

$1200 is asinine. $2800 is "hold a gun to your head aggressive robbery" for something as simple as an SLA battery.

I have fifteen of them in the garage and RV that came out of a datacenter used, that I paid $10/ea for. 75Ah, and they're now a decade old.

Charged and treated correctly for the most part, only three have failed so far. The rest all test out at nearly factory spec for high current draw. I'll let down my load tester testing them before these batteries would fail.

The three that have failed, one is in a hot location and two are in storage in a cold location and weren't always rotated on to the four stage charger when they should have been for self-discharge in the cold. Eight others in that cold environment have done fine. The rest are in a mixed ambient temp environment but when not in use are always kept on a proper tender charger for their rating numbers.

Airplanes are just an excuse to rip people off, I swear. Amazing.


I agree 100%. It's a 200 dollar battery at best with lots of profit margin but competition in the market is almost nonexistent because of the ridiculous nature of the FAA Pma process. Not many companies are willing to pay for access to such a small market. The end result is I get ****ed buying a battery at more than 200x it's real value.
 
Gorgeous day. Cool. Zero weather. Plane battery is dead. It is only a year old. Get it started. Electronics blinking off at random. Reset master... Everything comes on... Super low volume. Com1's squelch won't turn on so it is just non stop static.

I've spent too much money in the past six months for things to not just work.

Now I get to sit and wait for the mechanic to troubleshoot.

So I was going to take a quick flight before the Daytona 500. Preheat, uncover, start, taxi, no airspeed indication on take off roll. Abort take off, guess I wait till the pito system thaws I'm parked outside and no chance to get in a heated hanger for a week or better...:(
 
Oh definitely, I thought this thread was about somebody's Piper. How did we get to someone's turbine?

LOL. We'll take that as a rhetorical question.

Otherwise ircphoenix will start fantasizing about trading his Cherokee for a Meridian, just to get a good battery. :eek:
 
Side note:

As far as I know, Gills are still manufactured in the US. And nearly 100% of lead used in the US is from secondary (recycled) sources. Lead is not like recycled paper: it's a pure element. Once recycled, there is zero difference from virgin lead. So, both the Concordes and Gills (and every other lead-acid battery out there) is made from recycled lead. Lead is used in a nearly fully closed loop, so virgin lead is used just to add stocks to account for the growth of usage.
 
Side note:

As far as I know, Gills are still manufactured in the US. And nearly 100% of lead used in the US is from secondary (recycled) sources. Lead is not like recycled paper: it's a pure element. Once recycled, there is zero difference from virgin lead. So, both the Concordes and Gills (and every other lead-acid battery out there) is made from recycled lead. Lead is used in a nearly fully closed loop, so virgin lead is used just to add stocks to account for the growth of usage.

Heh. I close the loop by burying anything made with mined materials in my back yard. ;)

Kidding of course. But a good point. I raised an eyebrow at the "recycled lead" comment and scrolled on past.

Unless one is dumping lead acid batteries that no longer work right in the landfill, they get recycled.

There's some fun YouTube videos of folks attempting to do their own battery cleanup and resurrections, too. Bust the plastic seams and start pulling plates out... Title: "Fun with acid... or, How to Waste More Time Than Any Normal Busy Person Has". Heh.
 
New Concorde battery has been installed and new connections to the alternator have been installed. Doesn't do me a damn bit of good for taking advantage of the beautiful weather last week, but at least I got to spend the money on maintenance instead of being burdened with flying.
 
Sorry to read this buddy. You have to be close to reaching the rock bottom of this money pit. There isn't anywhere to to but up. Hang in there, I still haven't bought you that beer. ;)
 
Yeah, let's hope the fiscal bleeding has stopped and you can get out and enjoy your plane!
Weather's gonna be nice the next few days...I'm goin' up on Friday!!
 
I feel like another year of this spending and I would have been better off buying a Meridian.
As I said it was information passed on to me by a mechanic that I openly admitted I did not verify.

Regardless of where it came from it failed after just a few months of normal use. Still will not buy another gill.
 
Yeah, let's hope the fiscal bleeding has stopped and you can get out and enjoy your plane!
Weather's gonna be nice the next few days...I'm goin' up on Friday!!

I'm thinking about it. Hopefully the Santa Anas won't be picking up like the weather guessers on the news just said they were.
 
Gorgeous day. Cool. Zero weather. Plane battery is dead. It is only a year old. Get it started. Electronics blinking off at random. Reset master... Everything comes on... Super low volume. Com1's squelch won't turn on so it is just non stop static.

I've spent too much money in the past six months for things to not just work.

Now I get to sit and wait for the mechanic to troubleshoot.
Send it to me.. I'll give her the love she needs :p
 
despite the 60% again I've spent on fixing.

Sorry to rehash perhaps bad memories Mr. Phoenix... but can I please ask for a brief synopsis of your experiences? It's a Piper Cherokee 140, is it? I tried to search your posts...
 
Long story short.... $15k annual in which 3 cylinders had to be replaced on a 300 SMOH engine in additional to all of the other things. $650 directional gyro that came from together. $400 ish for EGT/CHT replacement. Mixture cable had to be replaced... that was another $300 ish. Replaced the battery in GNS530. That was another $150. Logs were incorrect and my pitot/static was due a year early. That's all the stuff I remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there was other stuff my brain has blocked out to protect itself.
 
Even if I took a 30K loan out, and bought a 30K plane, I would have to take out another 15K loan to pay for your annual! Yikes!

That might be an awkward conversation with the bank.
 
Even if I took a 30K loan out, and bought a 30K plane, I would have to take out another 15K loan to pay for your annual! Yikes!

That might be an awkward conversation with the bank.

Don't take @ircphoenix experience with his pa-28-140 as representative of the type. He was drawn by the siren song of low SMOH engine and desirable aftermarket trimmings (GNS 530 et al), in an airplane whose logs were likely pencil-whipped for a long time (pitot/static as one possible indicator of relevant mx behavior). He drew the short stick. His shop didn't do him any favors either on the labor rate and their willingness to push aggressively for invasive mx. Good bad or indifferent, that's why he had the outcome he had.

None of this invalidates his experience, but merely provides context for what the takeaway needs to be for you if you're serious about aircraft ownership. Yes, things can and do break at random, but big issues such as multiple cylinder work doesn't happen overnight. Understanding of the type's AD list and the recurring mx items most likely to be encountered as belated, seller withheld/minimized, or even purposely-misrepresented items during sale, sets you up for success when approaching a specific airplane for sale. The other takeaway is of course, to have some measure of disposable cash reserve to handle expenses on a recurring basis.

Though by comparison @ircphoenix has had a more expensive mx rate than my much more capable Arrow II, the reality is that in the aggregate, the arrow population will be more expensive to maintain than the -140/160 population.
 
Don't take @ircphoenix experience with his pa-28-140 as representative of the type. He was drawn by the siren song of low SMOH engine and desirable aftermarket trimmings (GNS 530 et al), in an airplane whose logs were likely pencil-whipped for a long time (pitot/static as one possible indicator of relevant mx behavior). He drew the short stick. His shop didn't do him any favors either on the labor rate and their willingness to push aggressively for invasive mx. Good bad or indifferent, that's why he had the outcome he had.

None of this invalidates his experience, but merely provides context for what the takeaway needs to be for you if you're serious about aircraft ownership. Yes, things can and do break at random, but big issues such as multiple cylinder work doesn't happen overnight. Understanding of the type's AD list and the recurring mx items most likely to be encountered as belated, seller withheld/minimized, or even purposely-misrepresented items during sale, sets you up for success when approaching a specific airplane for sale. The other takeaway is of course, to have some measure of disposable cash reserve to handle expenses on a recurring basis.

Though by comparison @ircphoenix has had a more expensive mx rate than my much more capable Arrow II, the reality is that in the aggregate, the arrow population will be more expensive to maintain than the -140/160 population.

I can't disagree with any of this. Once I'm done rebuilding my plane from the ground up, I should be in good shape with a 150,000 dollar Cherokee 140. LoL
 
Long story short.... $15k annual in which 3 cylinders had to be replaced on a 300 SMOH engine in additional to all of the other things. $650 directional gyro that came from together. $400 ish for EGT/CHT replacement. Mixture cable had to be replaced... that was another $300 ish. Replaced the battery in GNS530. That was another $150. Logs were incorrect and my pitot/static was due a year early. That's all the stuff I remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there was other stuff my brain has blocked out to protect itself.

Do you happen to have a breakdown of that annual? I would love to hear how an annual on a Cherokee can be $15k? (I don't doubt it of course, just out of curiosity as a Cessna owner...)
 
Do you happen to have a breakdown of that annual? I would love to hear how an annual on a Cherokee can be $15k? (I don't doubt it of course, just out of curiosity as a Cessna owner...)

From his account it was mostly labor on the IRAN of 3 cylinder kits. Absent that, it would have been a common snoozer PA-28 annual cost. Labor costs for old spam cans are out of line because of the inability to legally work on them in any significant fashion, in order to cost-save. Basically labor shop rates for 500AMU airplanes on 30AMU airframes. Same for certified parts procurement. Thence why exAB is popular. Of course, the opportunity cost of doing a bush league job of a build because of a stupid 51% rule and killing ourselves or family (work acquaintance unfortunately met that fate ) in order to attain mx reprieve seems a bridge too far for this non-builder.

Cessna guys shouldn't get too uppity about this outlier. One unchecked spar carrythrough and you're in deep doo doo with the old Cardinals et al. Don't get me started on Little Tykes gear actuators (FAA part number "bend-over-0069") on the retracts, it makes a Lyco cylinder kit job look like charity. All of this adds to the mx lopsided economics of the aging fleet.
 
You all really want to pour salt in the wound eh? C'mon now.

I'm sure I have it somewhere. I'll have to find it.
 
From his account it was mostly labor on the IRAN of 3 cylinder kits. Absent that, it would have been a common snoozer PA-28 annual cost. Labor costs for old spam cans are out of line because of the inability to legally work on them in any significant fashion, in order to cost-save. Basically labor shop rates for 500AMU airplanes on 30AMU airframes. Same for certified parts procurement. Thence why exAB is popular. Of course, the opportunity cost of doing a bush league job of a build because of a stupid 51% rule and killing ourselves or family (work acquaintance unfortunately met that fate ) in order to attain mx reprieve seems a bridge too far for this non-builder.

Cessna guys shouldn't get too uppity about this outlier. One unchecked spar carrythrough and you're in deep doo doo with the old Cardinals et al. Don't get me started on Little Tykes gear actuators (FAA part number "bend-over-0069") on the retracts, it makes a Lyco cylinder kit job look like charity. All of this adds to the mx lopsided economics of the aging fleet.

Sounds like the shop owner of the place that did the annual had 2 kids in college and a daughter getting married... Ouch!
 
My PA28 annuals have been running in the 2K range with the occasional repair in between and a couple oil changes -maybe another 1K. The first couple of years were expensive, the AP fixed everything (I think he was a bit overboard but what did I know); First "annual" immediately following prebuy was $5k (discrepancies noted in the prebuy); subsequents were around 3K for a while. New AP more willing to fabricate rather than buy some parts, saves some cash. The other stuff mentioned is small potatoes and to be expected on a 40-50 year old vehicle. The bad cylinders should have been caught at prebuy. I've had to replace a carb ($1500), elected to replace alternator and starter as preventative maintenance. I think my DG just s___ the bed, and a new one is $900 plus install. Also just bought a vertical card compass, $400 with mount from AS. Probably a hundred to have it installed.

Airplane ownership is not for the faint of heart, and wallet.
 
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