I had an epiphany last night!

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hyphen81

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hyphen81
I'm happy to report after several lessons of hearing my CFI practically yelling, "You quit flying the airplane! Don't quit flying the airplane!" that last night I had a break-through! It was so simple that I wish I wasn't so dense before, but what I was doing was, as soon as the main gear touched down, I was releasing basically all the back pressure off the yoke. :mad2:

Last night it finally clicked that I need to maintain that back pressure after the main gear touch down, and then let the nose wheel touch. After that I did 2 very decent landings and never "quit flying the airplane". I feel simultaneously stupid and proud of myself, if that makes sense.

A word of advice to you CFIs out there...make sure your student understands what I missed. I couldn't seem to grasp what he meant by "you quit flying the airplane." I just thought I was doing something wrong in the last couple of feet before touch down, but was confused because I couldn't see what I was doing wrong.

It looks like my CFI will probably have me solo on my next lesson in a week or so! :D
 
So basically, you've been whacking it in to the pavement and learned how not to do that?
 
HAHA
I remember being 15 and taking driving lessons. I was on the service road and my teacher starts yelling "Yeild! Yeild!'

No clue what he wanted me to do. lol


Make sure you ask every question.
Much earlier I should have asked what the hell my CFI meant by "level turn"

We kept going out to work on "level turns" but I noticed we had to get a lot of banking turns out of the way and never got to what I assumed was some sort of wings level turn. :)

yeah, ask questions.
 
CFI's live for light bulb moments like that
 

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I have found that in flight training things often seem to take leaps, instead of being a steady curve. Have trouble lining up the pattern for many go arounds, after struggling for a few hours, then it just clicks. Same thing for landings, can't get the flair right, then one day it just works and you move forwards.
 
The words "full stall landing" just seem to want to leap out of me. I'm guessing the CFI never uttered those words, and guessing also that such language/instruction is not in the ground portion of flight instruction these days?
 
docmirror said:
The words "full stall landing" just seem to want to leap out of me. I'm guessing the CFI never uttered those words, and guessing also that such language/instruction is not in the ground portion of flight instruction these days?
Click to expand...

he has mentioned this a good bit, and I am pretty familiar with it from my first round of flight training a while back.

I'm almost scared to hear the reaction my next statement will get, but the stall warning horn on the trainer I'm flying in doesn't work....maybe that should make me more nervous than it does? We've done a decent amount of stall training, so I've got a good feel for buffeting and what it feels like, but yeah....no horn on flare..
 
hyphen81 said:
he has mentioned this a good bit, and I am pretty familiar with it from my first round of flight training a while back.

I'm almost scared to hear the reaction my next statement will get, but the stall warning horn on the trainer I'm flying in doesn't work....maybe that should make me more nervous than it does? We've done a decent amount of stall training, so I've got a good feel for buffeting and what it feels like, but yeah....no horn on flare..
Click to expand...

As a student, the horn would be good for training just as a Pavlovian reward for doing it right. Not required and lots of planes don't have them.
I like to hear mine go off but if you fly the numbers you don't need it.

May even force you to pay more attention to ASI during maneuvering as you won't get an audible warning that something is amiss. Learn to feel for the buffet (probably spelled that wrong and you will now be looking for all you can eat joints when flying)
 
telling a student what to do isn't always gonna work.

telling them HOW to do it would prob work better. especially if they're doing the same thing wrong over and over.
 
hyphen81 said:
he has mentioned this a good bit, and I am pretty familiar with it from my first round of flight training a while back.

I'm almost scared to hear the reaction my next statement will get, but the stall warning horn on the trainer I'm flying in doesn't work....maybe that should make me more nervous than it does? We've done a decent amount of stall training, so I've got a good feel for buffeting and what it feels like, but yeah....no horn on flare..
Click to expand...

I learned on a fabric TW plane with spring steel gear and no stall warning installed. Get over it. If you know what the plane stalls at, and know how to multiply by 1.3 you have your appr speed. nail that, and get the throttle out of it over the numbers(or earlier, as you gain experience), then keep holding the plane off. Make like you don't WANT it to land, and keep back, back, back until you find the yoke in your lap, and the plane at stall speed. If you can do this and keep it close to the ground, your landing distance will magically disappear.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
As a student, the horn would be good for training just as a Pavlovian reward for doing it right. Not required and lots of planes don't have them.
I like to hear mine go off but if you fly the numbers you don't need it.

May even force you to pay more attention to ASI during maneuvering as you won't get an audible warning that something is amiss. Learn to feel for the buffet (probably spelled that wrong and you will now be looking for all you can eat joints when flying)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess you're right...maybe that statement won't get the reaction i thought :wink2:

I think I do need to be more conscious of the stall horn not working though. I am paying quite a bit of attention to the ASI in the pattern, but I'm not really actively realizing that I won't get a horn if I get close to a stall. In a way I think that may be a good thing because you have to learn it by feel. OTOH, the whole pavlovian response along with feeling it is probably preferable.

all this talk of buffeting is making me hungry!
 
The horn actually may have contributed to your original 'quit flying the plane' issue.
 
How likely would it be to have a wing stall in a steep (45 degree) turn at say, 95 knots? I just finished reading stick and rudder and he talks about angle of attack changing in a bank, and how you can make one wing stall in that situation. I've found when I'm practicing steep turns that I'm not anticipating the altitude dropping, and then to compensate I'm having to pull back a LOT in order to recover my altitude. To the point where I'm light-headed. Now that I'm thinking about the stall warning horn not working, I'm curious as to the likelihood of that situation causing a stall?
 
Not likely at all. But, that's one of the reasons for practicing these maneuvers at altitude. Just in case...

In a 45 degree bank, stall speed will be 1.43 times higher (use 1.5) than normal stall speed. If normal stall speed is 50 mph, in a 45 degree bank it would be 71.5 mph (round to 75 for extra margin)

I don't know how far a long you are but at some point in your training, you can do banking stalls and accelerated stalls. They can be heart-pounding but they are safe. As always, Stay coordinated.
 
hyphen81 said:
How likely would it be to have a wing stall in a steep (45 degree) turn at say, 95 knots? I just finished reading stick and rudder and he talks about angle of attack changing in a bank, and how you can make one wing stall in that situation. I've found when I'm practicing steep turns that I'm not anticipating the altitude dropping, and then to compensate I'm having to pull back a LOT in order to recover my altitude. To the point where I'm light-headed. Now that I'm thinking about the stall warning horn not working, I'm curious as to the likelihood of that situation causing a stall?
Click to expand...
Pretty high.

But, first, lettuce be clear about the fact that stall has nothing to do with bank angle. Stalls happen at an angle of attach which is determined primarily by airspeed and elevator - not bank angle.

In this case, however, if you are trying to maintain altitude (which requires a pull) and if you are pulling late and hard, you are more likely to stall than if you were pulling evenly to maintain a constant altitude. Yes, there is a bit of a difference between one wing an the other, but the pull is the 500 pound gorilla in this case - not the bank / turn.

You can stall at 95 wings level if you pull hard enough.

You can stall turning base to final if you keep pulling to make the speed decay (and add a bit of loading as well) even if you keep you bank angle shallow.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
In a 45 degree bank, stall speed will be 1.43 times higher (use 1.5) than normal stall speed.
Click to expand...

Complete and udder nonsense.

I've been at 90 degrees of bank, ball in the center, and not stalled - according to your "theory" that would be impossible - right? But it's not. No pull, no stall.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Not likely at all. But, that's one of the reasons for practicing these maneuvers at altitude. Just in case...

In a 45 degree bank, stall speed will be 1.43 times higher (use 1.5) than normal stall speed. If normal stall speed is 50 mph, in a 45 degree bank it would be 71.5 mph (round to 75 for extra margin)

I don't know how far a long you are but at some point in your training, you can do banking stalls and accelerated stalls. They can be heart-pounding but they are safe. As always, Stay coordinated.
Click to expand...

Ok, that's good info to know. I've still got a lot of book work to do...ugh.

So what you're saying is the same 45 degree bank, done at 70 knots (or pulling up until I reach 70 knots) would be a poor decision? I guess I need to keep an eye on my ASI. We've never done a 45 degree bank slower than 95, but I've also not been watching the ASI in the midst of the turn when I'm giving it hard back pressure.

We've done a couple banking stalls so far. No big deal there. He's also showed me a couple of almost-spins....one REALLY almost spin. I will say I'm not terribly excited about practicing stalls without a CFI in the plane. But then again, when I first went up with him, I wasn't terribly excited to be off the ground, so you definitely get used to things after a while.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Pretty high.

But, first, lettuce be clear about the fact that stall has nothing to do with bank angle. Stalls happen at an angle of attach which is determined primarily by airspeed and elevator - not bank angle.

In this case, however, if you are trying to maintain altitude (which requires a pull) and if you are pulling late and hard, you are more likely to stall than if you were pulling evenly to maintain a constant altitude. Yes, there is a bit of a difference between one wing an the other, but the pull is the 500 pound gorilla in this case - not the bank / turn.

You can stall at 95 wings level if you pull hard enough.

You can stall turning base to final if you keep pulling to make the speed decay (and add a bit of loading as well) even if you keep you bank angle shallow.
Click to expand...

I guess I need to talk to my CFI. Initially when we were doing steep turns, I wasn't pulling back enough and he kind of griped and grabbed the yoke and said "pull back!" and that's when he pulled back real hard and I felt the g forces. He didn't seem worried about the stall, so we must not have been close to it.

So the lesson here is, maintain altitude rather than trying to quickly recover it.

Regarding your other comment about the 90 degree bank, that's exactly what my CFI says about that too...I had forgotten he said that until I saw your comment.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Complete and udder nonsense.

I've been at 90 degrees of bank, ball in the center, and not stalled - according to your "theory" that would be impossible - right? But it's not. No pull, no stall.
Click to expand...


Seriously....

He was talking about during steep turns.
That is what my comments were predicated upon. A level steep turn of 45 degrees.

Doubtful he has gotten to the knife edge flying portion of his PPL training yet.
 
A long time ago someone told me "You don't stop flying the plane until the next guy signs it out."
Took awhile to figure it out, but it's true.
 
hyphen81 said:
I'm happy to report after several lessons of hearing my CFI practically yelling, "You quit flying the airplane! Don't quit flying the airplane!" that last night I had a break-through! It was so simple that I wish I wasn't so dense before, but what I was doing was, as soon as the main gear touched down, I was releasing basically all the back pressure off the yoke. :mad2:

Last night it finally clicked that I need to maintain that back pressure after the main gear touch down, and then let the nose wheel touch. After that I did 2 very decent landings and never "quit flying the airplane". I feel simultaneously stupid and proud of myself, if that makes sense.

A word of advice to you CFIs out there...make sure your student understands what I missed. I couldn't seem to grasp what he meant by "you quit flying the airplane." I just thought I was doing something wrong in the last couple of feet before touch down, but was confused because I couldn't see what I was doing wrong.

It looks like my CFI will probably have me solo on my next lesson in a week or so! :D
Click to expand...

http://youtu.be/Uwy29IfglWY
 
Jon,

You done good, listen to your CFI, ask him to explain better, and definitely don't listen to the rabble rousers here who love beating their chest and waving their peckers at every topic on this site.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
But, first, lettuce be clear...
Click to expand...

And definitely don't let anyone try to bring their dinner salad into the conversation!
 
Shepherd said:
A long time ago someone told me "You don't stop flying the plane until the next guy signs it out."
Took awhile to figure it out, but it's true.
Click to expand...

I'm satisfied if they just fly it back to the tie down. After that they're off the hook.
 
hyphen81 said:
It was so simple that I wish I wasn't so dense before, but what I was doing was, as soon as the main gear touched down, I was releasing basically all the back pressure off the yoke.
Click to expand...

The word landing implies an instantaneous event, but actually it's a time of transition when the airplane is both flying and taxiing, with the flying amount gradually decreasing and taxiing amount gradually increasing.
 
timwinters said:
Jon,



You done good, listen to your CFI, ask him to explain better, and definitely don't listen to the rabble rousers here who love beating their chest and waving their peckers at every topic on this site.
Click to expand...


Haha! There are definitely some "pecker wavers", but my experience overall with POA so far has been great. The internet is a douchey place in general I suppose..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
geneseib said:
The word landing implies an instantaneous event, but actually it's a time of transition when the airplane is both flying and taxiing, with the flying amount gradually decreasing and taxiing amount gradually increasing.
Click to expand...


Well said! I'm getting that now! I don't know why it hadn't clicked previously...I've seen planes land before...I guess for whatever reason I just wasn't putting it together...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
To be honest, "you quit flying the airplane" is an ambiguous statement that teaches the student very little. If your instructor was not following immediately with an explanation of what s/he meant, then s/he has done a poor job of teaching that point. Ask questions right away whenever you don't understand.
 
asechrest said:
To be honest, "you quit flying the airplane" is an ambiguous statement that teaches the student very little. If your instructor was not following immediately with an explanation of what s/he meant, then s/he has done a poor job of teaching that point. Ask questions right away whenever you don't understand.
Click to expand...

+1

...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Pretty high.

But, first, lettuce be clear about the fact that stall has nothing to do with bank angle. Stalls happen at an angle of attach which is determined primarily by airspeed and elevator - not bank angle.
Click to expand...

Yeah that ... watch out or you'll REALLY be in a PICKLE.
 
asechrest said:
To be honest, "you quit flying the airplane" is an ambiguous statement that teaches the student very little. If your instructor was not following immediately with an explanation of what s/he meant, then s/he has done a poor job of teaching that point. Ask questions right away whenever you don't understand.
Click to expand...

I agree. In hindsight I should've asked more questions to get some clarity, but I kept thinking, well maybe I'm just not working the rudder enough. I'm not blaming my instructor in the least, but I do wish he could've found another way to describe the issue when I clearly wasn't getting it. If I had a dollar for every time I heard him say, "you quit flying the airplane", I could almost afford another hour in the plane. :lol:
 
Next time just ask.
How come every time we land you tell me to quit flying the airplane?
 
When you get to fly a taildragger, just replace all that with "Never quit flying the airplane till it's parked in front of the hanger !!" If you do, you'll get a lesson you'll never forget.
 
hyphen81 said:
I guess I need to talk to my CFI. Initially when we were doing steep turns, I wasn't pulling back enough and he kind of griped and grabbed the yoke and said "pull back!" and that's when he pulled back real hard and I felt the g forces. He didn't seem worried about the stall, so we must not have been close to it.

So the lesson here is, maintain altitude rather than trying to quickly recover it.

Regarding your other comment about the 90 degree bank, that's exactly what my CFI says about that too...I had forgotten he said that until I saw your comment.
Click to expand...
First, congrats on your epiphany!
Instead of trying to remember to "pull back", use the trim wheel to set the plane up and your need to "pull back" will be reduced considerably. BTW, which field are you doing training (more curious than anything)?
 
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