I got an official letter from the State Department of Transportation

PS - I better curtail my animal rescue flights cause I'm gonna be in the same boat as Ted soon. Illegal transport of canines across state lines....sheesh.

Actually, there are laws regulating the interstate transport of animals. The real one that those of us who transport animals need to be concerned with is that big envelope of paperwork that we get with each flight we do. That envelope has health certificates and the other required papers to legally transport the animals.

Too bad PA doesn't do this... may have saved Ted 40 minutes.

See I signed this paper I'm not a terriost, you don't need to search my plane. :mad2:

Now now now, they said they were looking for drugs. :nono:

As stupid as it is, there probably are some people dumb enough to admit to things they shouldn't.
 
But what demands did he make? Who/what organization is left to receive this demands?

Definition: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

So again...a singular individual, with no ties to any organization that can continue to foster fear or violence, commits a singular act on a group does not, in my mind, constitute terrorism. We have got to be REAL careful labeling anything and everything with that term.

Now, if you said he was affiliated with the United Front of Anti-tax Citizens, a known violent organization that kills IRS/government personnel and will continue to do so, fine, but a singular person, a singular event, as an act of revenge? Nope...not terrorism.

If I am reading your words correctly, Tom, you think that an individual must be associated with a group that can carry on the mission of fostering fear or violence in order for that person's violent acts to qualify as terrorism. That's not what your own definition said, as shown above.

Let's break it down:

Definition: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence

I think flying an airplane into a building and killing people counts as unlawful use of force or violence.

by a person or an organized group

Mr. Joseph A. Stack, individual person.

against people or property

Both, in this case. The people in the building, and the building(s).

with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments

From his own diatribe: "Violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer ... I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored, that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are."

He expected his actions to provoke or coerce a knee jerk government response, that would make OTHERS "wake up" and pick up his torch and revolt.

often for ideological or political reasons.

I presume you read his statement?

EDIT: I replied to this after I read your post, but before I read the subsequent exchange between you and Scott. You don't have to answer again, I see your point, too. As with Scott, I just don't feel you can say the definition does NOT apply. Whether one chooses to apply it to a specific instance involves weighing other factors. Somebody above mentioned a mentally ill individual vs. a terrorist. My good friend, a psychiatrist, maintains that terrorists are mentally ill individuals--they don't know how to cope with their stressors in a reasoned adult manner, thus resort to violence.
 
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maybe if he had flown his plane in Morgan-Stanley, but into the IRS? I thought the left wing loved taxes as part of their redistribution of wealth plans? The IRS would be their alley would it not?

Obfusaction. You related the poor logic of the Huffington Post, and obviously that linkage is flawed.
 
He is as much a terrorist as the woman who "allegedly" shot and killed her fellow professors. It was a solo act of violence not some planned and organized act of aggression. The investigation belongs to local agencies and the FBI.
 
Scott....I read the whole definition. Crap man...if you want to do that, then the first time I bowed up to someone else on the dance floor to "intimidate" them so I could impress the girl would make me a terrorist.

All I am saying is that we bandy that label around all too frequently today. I applied the rest of the definition and the real-world understanding of it, that there was no agenda in this beyond revenge due to anger. Now...if bombings were done with letters of demand trying to force the IRS into doing something I would be right with ya....but I just have a hard time calling this a terrorist attack.

C'mon, we gotta do it for the children.... :rolleyes:
 
Obfusaction. You related the poor logic of the Huffington Post, and obviously that linkage is flawed.
Can you write that statement so that it makes sense, cause I have no idea what you are saying.

There are easy parallels to be drawn between the Tea Party movement and what this guys is doing. Even last night at CPAC there were similar rants to Stack's manifesto. I have no idea what his politics are but I can see where a reasonable arguement could be made between what he did and the poltical ideology being spouted out by the Tea Baggers and even provided you with an example. There are not a lot of left wing loons calling for the destruction of the IRS.
 
Obfusaction. You related the poor logic of the Huffington Post, and obviously that linkage is flawed.

As seen at the 9/12/09 DC Tea Party gathering...

912-TeaParty-DC-We-came-unarmed-this-time.jpg


Harmless expression of First Amendment rights, or a threat? I dunno. But I can't say that I've seen similar sentiment at traditional left-wing protests...


Trapper John
 
Can you write that statement so that it makes sense, cause I have no idea what you are saying.

There are easy parallels to be drawn between the Tea Party movement and what this guys is doing. Even last night at CPAC there were similar rants to Stack's manifesto. I have no idea what his politics are but I can see where a reasonable arguement could be made between what he did and the poltical ideology being spouted out by the Tea Baggers and even provided you with an example. There are not a lot of left wing loons calling for the destruction of the IRS.


Let me break it down for you...

You regurgitated here what you read on the Huffington Post.

The Post tried to link Stack's acts with the Tea Party movement, yet Stack was clearly in the Left Loon camp as evidenced by his blaming "GW Bush", various corporations (including "health care" and "drug" companies) , and capitalism.

So, to simplify: Don't believe everything you read, especially on polemic sites such as the Huffington Post.
 
Let me break it down for you...

You regurgitated here what you read on the Huffington Post.
I did? news to me. Do you have proof of that allegation?

The Post tried to link Stack's acts with the Tea Party movement, yet Stack was clearly in the Left Loon camp as evidenced by his blaming "GW Bush", various corporations (including "health care" and "drug" companies) , and capitalism.
No i said that paralells could be drawn, big difference.

So, to simplify: Don't believe everything you read, especially on polemic sites such as the Huffington Post.
I don't but what does that have to do with anything we are discussing? You claim he is some sort of, and I am quoting you "left wing loon". Where did you get that from?
 
As seen at the 9/12/09 DC Tea Party gathering...

912-TeaParty-DC-We-came-unarmed-this-time.jpg


Harmless expression of First Amendment rights, or a threat? I dunno. But I can't say that I've seen similar sentiment at traditional left-wing protests...


Trapper John
Well according to Dan and his 'geometric' logic that guy is likely a left wing loon, I wonder if he also made a duplicate key and stole the strawberries? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Well according to Dan and his 'geometric' logic that guy is likely a left wing loon, I wonder if he also made a duplicate key and stole the strawberries? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

"Too bad we can't use you as an expert on psychiatry Mr. Keefer, after all, you made the diagnosis."


Trapper John
 
"Too bad we can't use you as an expert on psychiatry Mr. Keefer, after all, you made the diagnosis."


Trapper John
The truly ironic post of Dan's is that my post in the SZ on this is in agreement with Michelle Maklin and raises the same issues. I guess she writes for HuffPo now, well at least in Dan's mind.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
If only the feds had the legislative brilliance and sound judgment of the good people who run Ohio, we could do away with all this TSA crap at the airports and everywhere else. All they have to do is have every person in the country sign a form that they are, or are not, terrorists. This form could simply be part of the U.S. Census.

Those that indicate that they are terrorists could simply follow the included instructions on how to surrender themselves for further questioning to any peace officer or government official.

This form could also be made available at any U.S.consolut for people who are considering traveling to our country.

Finally! A solution to the war on terror. We can get back to living normal lives again.

John
 
FYI, the primary definition of terrorism (in both federal statute, and by DoJ and DHS) is:
The use or threatened use of force or violence, against a population or any segment thereof, in furtherance of a political or social agenda.

So yes, Stack's acts did meet the legal definition of terrorism.
And I agree, it was an act of domestic terror, *IF* there is not evidence that he was unhinged. (and I don't mean paranoid, but actually crazy).
In general, in law enforcement, you distinguish between premeditated acts of people who are calculatingly taking an action, vs the acts of nuts who have lost touch with reality. The acts of crazy people are not the same as the acts of sane people.

For example, a guy walks into a house and kills a guy and his family over a criminal transaction. That's a lot different than a psychotic who kills a guy and his family because he believed that they were satanic spirits coming to destroy the earth.

The same is true in distinguishing between the actions of a crazy individual, vs an organized group of people driven by ideology or religion to commit murders or attempted murders. One is a self-limiting action, the other is a self-perpetuating action that requires direct intervention to prevent from continuing.
 
The truly ironic post of Dan's is that my post in the SZ on this is in agreement with Michelle Maklin and raises the same issues. I guess she writes for HuffPo now, well at least in Dan's mind.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I don't care what Malkin wrote -- or any other speculative pundit, for that matter.

I read Stack's post, unfiltered.

He had lots of hate to go around. Trying to link his malice to a particular political movement such as the tea Party is a smear tactic.

After all, the guy owned a low-wing airplane -- clearly we should be concerned about those folks.
 
As seen at the 9/12/09 DC Tea Party gathering...

912-TeaParty-DC-We-came-unarmed-this-time.jpg


Harmless expression of First Amendment rights, or a threat? I dunno. But I can't say that I've seen similar sentiment at traditional left-wing protests...


Trapper John

The clown holding the picture looks very fierce and intimidating doesn't he?
I know if I was a government official, I'd be shaking in my boots, I'll bet.

Do you think that ******* even knows how to load a gun, or what end to point at his target?

John
 
The clown holding the picture looks very fierce and intimidating doesn't he?
I know if I was a government official, I'd be shaking in my boots, I'll bet.

Do you think that ******* even knows how to load a gun, or what end to point at his target?

John

Having known a couple of people who are and were in some of the more demanding military and government units, I would say that making a threat determination by outward appearances is a mistake.
 
The clown holding the picture looks very fierce and intimidating doesn't he?
I know if I was a government official, I'd be shaking in my boots, I'll bet.

Do you think that ******* even knows how to load a gun, or what end to point at his target?

John

Could just be a guy with bad fashion sense holding a sign someone gave him. He doesn't necessarily look smart enough to go to "Signs in a Jiffy" and have it printed up with correct spelling. But in any case, the sign is missing a handle, and that's one thing I find essential for a comfortable protest (that and a lawn chair).

But if you look at pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, he doesn't look very intimidating, either...


Trapper John
 
I don't care what Malkin wrote -- or any other speculative pundit, for that matter.

I read Stack's post, unfiltered.

He had lots of hate to go around. Trying to link his malice to a particular political movement such as the tea Party is a smear tactic.

After all, the guy owned a low-wing airplane -- clearly we should be concerned about those folks.
So you are attacking me for agreeing with you. SMAAAARRTTT, ARMY SMART :mad2::mad2::mad2: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
I still don't understand whether the state actually has legal authority to place the requirements upon the OP that they have.

Aircraft are federally regulated, not state or locally.
 
As seen at the 9/12/09 DC Tea Party gathering...



Harmless expression of First Amendment rights, or a threat? I dunno. But I can't say that I've seen similar sentiment at traditional left-wing protests...


Trapper John

I will give you that we rarely see violence out of more left-wing/liberal protesters...well except for:

http://www.mndaily.com/2008/09/02/rnc-protests-turn-violent-hundreds-arrested

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/45551437.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dawn-teo/protest-against-americas_b_425970.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/08/MN2N155CN1.DTL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...nisterial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity

Sorry Scott...no one side has a lock on violence. Heck I would rather the guy hold up a sign than actually do violence.

I may be wrong, and will admit it if I am, but a quick search showed one fist fight that occurred at a Tea Party rally (your favorite target lately)...show me the widespread violence that the Tea Party, or even frustrated conservatives, have done en mass lately.

There is none....but there is strong rhetoric going on that shows the level of frustration and anger that does exist. That should be taken seriously...not dismissed. If nothing else so we can understand WHY they are angry...and if it is irrational try to educate them. If it is rational...than perhaps others need to be educated.
 
I still don't understand whether the state actually has legal authority to place the requirements upon the OP that they have.
I just realized this was not the SZ. :rofl:
 
As seen at the 9/12/09 DC Tea Party gathering...

912-TeaParty-DC-We-came-unarmed-this-time.jpg


Harmless expression of First Amendment rights, or a threat? I dunno. But I can't say that I've seen similar sentiment at traditional left-wing protests...


Trapper John

Yeah, they just go to events like the Global Warming conference and trash businesses and such. Or maybe they show up at staff meetings and shoot their colleagues because they were denied tenure. :D
 
Sorry Scott...no one side has a lock on violence. Heck I would rather the guy hold up a sign than actually do violence..
I never claimed any such thing.

What I am saying is that the nature of his comments, things such as:
We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals [sic] represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was ‘no taxation without representation.’ I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a ‘crackpot,’ traitor and worse,” Stack wrote.
Can be used to allow the government to start survalience of anyone speaking against the government. Thos laws, put into place during the Bush conservo-revolution, totally throw out our Constituional freedoms and now in the Conservative blood lust for Islamo-fascists start being used against all the people of the US.

The Tea Baggers have their loons, and as seen in the picture morons, but that is not a reason to allow government to stop them or spy on them. I don't know if this guy is a bagger or not, he sounds enough like one that many people are now drawing parallels to the movement and him, the government will possibly focus what is, IMHO, unlawful surveillance upon them.
 
I don't know if this guy is a bagger or not, he sounds enough like one that many people are now drawing parallels to the movement and him, the government will possibly focus what is, IMHO, unlawful surveillance upon them.

I have no idea...but if he is in the movement, boy look out because they have seriously captured a diverse group.

Based on the guys rant, and yes I read it, I would NOT have pegged him as a conservative, but much more of a liberal, at least based on the first-hand rants my more liberal friends have unloaded on me (VERY similar to this guys ramblings).
 
In Iowa I had to carry state registration in the glider. I thought it was stupid because nearly every flight I landed in a field somewhere instead of a state funded airport. I guess I did use the state funded runway to take off though.

No such requirement that I've found or been told of in Kansas.
 
Based on the guys rant, and yes I read it, I would NOT have pegged him as a conservative, but much more of a liberal, at least based on the first-hand rants my more liberal friends have unloaded on me (VERY similar to this guys ramblings).


You mean such as hating GW Bush, corporations, drug companies, GM, and capitalism?

You'd be right.
 
Why does Ohio needs its own homeland security office. Are they a "mini-me" to the DHS?

This reminds me of driving into Russia from Finland a few years ago at Vartsila. You walk into the customs declaration office. On your left, 12 or 15 militsiya, X-ray machines, booths for closer and more personal examinations, and a bunch of eager eyes trained on you.

On your right, a door that takes you right back outside, that said "nothing to declare" on it.

They didn't speak english, so they didn't get to tell me "hey, that's not how it's done" :D

I'd be much happier with two lines at the LAX security checkpoint -- "Terrorists" and "Other"

:mad2:
 
Yeah, they just go to events like the Global Warming conference and trash businesses and such. Or maybe they show up at staff meetings and shoot their colleagues because they were denied tenure. :D

I will give you that we rarely see violence out of more left-wing/liberal protesters...well except for:

<snip>

The problem with playing the anecdotal evidence card is that the next card played is a face card, like, "OK, how many liberals have bombed clinics and killed doctors?" which leads to the difficult decision to call, raise or fold...

What's happening here in the effort to put this guy into someone else's philosophical/political camp is the psychological phenomonon of making the perpetrator as different from ourselves as we possibly can, thereby helping guarantee ourselves that we would never do such a thing. Same thing as when some schmoe buys the farm, and we convince ourselves that wouldn't happen to us because of our superior aeronautical skill, planning, judgement and so on.


Trapper John
 
Sorry about not putting this in SZ, but originally it was about the registration and how it had to be carried in the aircraft. I thought everyone already knew about the stupid "I am not a terrorist" declaration. Its been around couple years, and is very insulting.
 
Having known a couple of people who are and were in some of the more demanding military and government units, I would say that making a threat determination by outward appearances is a mistake.

101st Airborne, Recondo Sgt., a little demanding. You are right though, "never underestimate the enemy." I had a fellow tell me during a conversation a couple of days ago while I was out walking my dog, how he is convinced things are going to start getting violent, people are so fed up. I told him my theory of never voting incumbent until you are happy with your government, he liked the idea, but said there will be violence anyway.

Why is it that the ugly chicks carry rape whistles and the wimps talk about armed revolt? I think every kid should have to see what a bullet does to a hunk of meat before they graduate from grade school.

John
 
The problem with playing the anecdotal evidence card is that the next card played is a face card, like, "OK, how many liberals have bombed clinics and killed doctors?" which leads to the difficult decision to call, raise or fold...

What's happening here in the effort to put this guy into someone else's philosophical/political camp is the psychological phenomonon of making the perpetrator as different from ourselves as we possibly can, thereby helping guarantee ourselves that we would never do such a thing. Same thing as when some schmoe buys the farm, and we convince ourselves that wouldn't happen to us because of our superior aeronautical skill, planning, judgement and so on.


Trapper John

Good analysis, but what's also happening is demonizing: "See? This guy is just like X!"

Label X a violent threat, and thereby remove a competitor in the idea market.
 
Folks, stop the spin zone talk or the thread will be moved.

Could someone please tell me whether the state even has the legal authority to issue this requirement?
 
Folks, stop the spin zone talk or the thread will be moved.

Could someone please tell me whether the state even has the legal authority to issue this requirement?
I do not think that any state has the authority to move a thread on PoA. That right is reserved for the MC. :rofl:
 
I find it odd that a guy trained in Yeman, by a group we are at war with, tries to blow up a commercial airliner and he gets a lawyer and is considered a criminal. A citizen, fed up with the government, crashes his plane into an office building and he is a terrorist. Hmmmmm. :rolleyes:

What are they going to do? Sprinkle his ashes over Guantanamo Bay? You can be a terrorist and a criminal at the same time.

Terrorism consists of violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal, and deliberately target or disregard the safety of civilians. You decide.
 
Folks, stop the spin zone talk or the thread will be moved.

Could someone please tell me whether the state even has the legal authority to issue this requirement?

From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)
(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
(A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
(i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or
(ii) as a transit point; and
(B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—
(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50;
(ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or
(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.​
 
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