I feel less than useless!

[Let'sgoflying!]

Today was my debut, 'my chance'- but it didn't work out.
At least I didn't screw it up - but I still feel crummy.

The 'patriarch pilot' of the operation was away, and I was to fly the jet to Houston; left seat, in charge, Commander Captain, and all that..... but I canceled!! How much does that suck?
There was a 30kt direct 90d xwind at base and fss said a continuous -as in, unbroken - line of tz's from S of DFW to well into Mexico, across our planned route; tops to fl500. &#%$&@!! Talked to a lear pilot that made it through an hour earlier but he can go a lot higher than 'our' nearjet. There was just too many things going against us, the signs were there. I was influenced by another's experience with the plane last year - a light dusting of hail 20nm from the nearest cloud cleaned the paint off the nose to the tune of $20,000., I think it was. We could have gone way north but they didn't HAVE to be there - and it would have cost another thousand bucks to do it.

Ah well, the unsavory decisions provide for us in other ways.

where is the icon for beating your head agin' the wall? Here, this should do:

 

[Richard]

No harm, no foul. Well, you used your superior judgement to take a pass on incurring another $20K in mx. You lived to fly another day. Maybe your correct decision will be noticed.... Don't you just love platitudes?


Less than useless? I don't think so.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Sorry Dave. This wasn't a one time deal was it? Sounds like you'll get another shot at it. If it was your plane, would you have gone? If you were payin all the bills?

Don't think I'd deliberately point the TN A-36 into the kind of weather you mentioned, or the P-Baron.

Best,

Dave

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

yeah, thanks.. jets are supposed to *never* cancel, right?

 

[RobertGerace]

Dave,

Thank you for:

- not causing our insurance rates to go up
- not giving GA another black eye
- not taking unnecessary chances with human lives in the air or on the ground
- making good decisions
- living to fly another day
- not destroying the airplane that I might buy some day

...I could go on, but you get the point.

good show...

 

[Eamon]

yeah, thanks.. jets are supposed to *never* cancel, right?

LOL ............... it all depends on your company's mission.

I can not cancel except for forecasted heavy freezing rain.

"We son, I know it says 1/4 mile vis.... You'll be ok................ We're counting on you............... Have a nice flight!"

"It is only a small line of T-Storms......... Don't you have radar?"

"I am sure you can find a hole"

"Just head north for a few miles........ You'll make it "

"That's what those little black things on your wings are for"

 

[Richard]

Eamon's post reminds me of the flight school owner with over 12,000 instructing who asked me to run some parts 80 nm down the valley for him. In fact, he did my Comm checkride. The first thing I did was to head for my truck to grab the sectional chart. He wanted to know why I was doing that, all you have to do is follow the highway.

Yabut, highways don't give you the freqs and it was a darn good thing I did because coming back was MVFR all the way and 2 BR coming back into the Class C and I used 6, maybe 7 freqs to get back in.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Thanks Bob - hey Eamon, what does the boss say if you beat the #&$^ out of the leading edge in hail? Do they take the responsibility for pushing you to go or is it a black mark on your record?
Sorry for my tantrum, I am getting over it quickly

 

[Toby]

LOL ............... it all depends on your company's mission.

I can not cancel except for forecasted heavy freezing rain.

"We son, I know it says 1/4 mile vis.... You'll be ok................ We're counting on you............... Have a nice flight!"

"It is only a small line of T-Storms......... Don't you have radar?"

"I am sure you can find a hole"

"Just head north for a few miles........ You'll make it "

"That's what those little black things on your wings are for"

Eamon, Wow. Well, if anyone can handle those kinds of challenges and keep his cool, it's you. I know you're doing a great job.

What are the little black things?

 

[SCCutler]

"...little black things..."

Deicing boots.

 

[wsuffa]

Dave,

If that was the same line of storms that rolled through here last evening, you made a good choice....

 

[poadeleted3]

Thanks Bob - hey Eamon, what does the boss say if you beat the #&$^ out of the leading edge in hail? Do they take the responsibility for pushing you to go or is it a black mark on your record?
Sorry for my tantrum, I am getting over it quickly

For cargo haulers, I'd imagine it's just a cost of business. Just like replacing their pilots who get killed flying into that stuff.

 

[gismo]

yeah, thanks.. jets are supposed to *never* cancel, right?

I was going to say you must be thinking about military jets, but AFaIK even they cancel now and then for wx, and they've got ejection seats for all aboard.

 

[poadeleted3]

I was going to say you must be thinking about military jets, but AFaIK even they cancel now and then for wx, and they've got ejection seats for all aboard.

They must have misplaced mine the last time I was aboard a KC135

 

[gismo]

They must have misplaced mine the last time I was aboard a KC135

Obviously they don't have ejection capability on all military jets. Besides according to the accurate portrayal of Hollywood, tankers always explode if there's any problem so you'd probably have no trouble getting "ejected".

 

[Eamon]

Thanks Bob - hey Eamon, what does the boss say if you beat the #&$^ out of the leading edge in hail? Do they take the responsibility for pushing you to go or is it a black mark on your record?
Sorry for my tantrum, I am getting over it quickly

My Plane is a lot slower than a jet so I bet it is less of a problem. I have hit small hail once for a few mins. I am sure flying here in T-Storm alley I will hit some more before my year is up

Anytime I think the wx is bad enough that I might not make my destination I call my dispatcher. They make the decision for me. If the plane get dented, it is on them as far as I am concerned. I am hoping NOT to find out.

The good thing about T-Storms is that they move slow. It is usually easy to fly around them. Even a big line usually has some holes or at least some yellow or green areas. Having radar makes it a little easier to find a hole, with some exceptions

 

[RobertGerace]

I don't cancel many flights, but when I do I usually have a good reason like Dave.

I have it worked out in my mind that I can top most ice, and I can go around most thunderstorms.

I much prefer to fly either type of weather during the day, but I'll fly both at night if need be.

If I had to pick one that I'm more careful with, it would be ice. As Eamon said, t-storms are usually easy to get around...and this brings me to a post I've been meaning to write, but haven't found the correct time/place.

PIREP: MX-20, WSI Weather, WX-500 Stormscope, and RDR 160!!! What an AWESOME combination!!!

The last 10 flights I've made have been right through 500-1000nm long lines of t-storms, but it hasn't been a problem. WSI is Sooooo accurate that on the most-zoomed-in mode I actually hit rain the moment the green square and the little airplane collide on the MX-20.

Using WSI I do my planning (left, right, straight ahead)...and that may change as I watch cells move towards...or away...from my path. WSI doesn't tell the whole story, however, as just because there is green (or yellow, or red) on the display doesn't mean that the weather is above me. It could very well be below me. So that's where the radar comes in. Using radar, I can examine where in the cloud the precip is... and in some cases go right over the top of the precip...and if I'm lucky...right over the top of the clouds.

Now, we know that the clouds may build quite high, and may be very turbulent...so...even radar enough isn't enough to make a decision to penetrate a cloud...in addition, the stormscop shows me if there is lightening there. While I will fly into an area where strikes have occured, I won't if there is a cell shown on radar, or yellows/reds in an area where strikes have occured...I will go around.

Now, sometimes, where an actual cell exists, WSI will give me echo tops, and even report hail. It will also show me the direction and speed of movement...which is REALLY nice. I have stayed pointed right at a level 3 with 30,000 tops and been confident that by the time I get there, it will be 30 or 40 miles across my path.

All of this is MUCH easier during the day...because it is much easier to go...WOAH...as you fly around the buildups if you can SEE them. On my flight to BWI last week I flew into some (but of course, no cell on WSI, no rainshaft on radar, and no strikes on WX-500)...but neverthless it was one helluva ride...and quite unexpected as I could see nothing but blackness out of the windows the entire flight.

Something very interesting is that the weather shown in the FBO, and on the WEB, and on television always seems to paint this un-broken line of CB's / T-storms, but in reality, I have learned to just take off and head straight along my route...right towards the line. In all cases so far, there IS a hole not too far off my route...with 20-30nm clearance on both sides. Yes, I may need to deviate 15 minutes one way or the other..but...yes...there is a hole.

Of course, it is quite possible that I could get there and not find a hole. In that case, I would just turn around and land. (Yes, I'm watching behind me to make sure that it doesn't close up.)

Another thing cool about this setup is for takeoff planning. The weather can be pretty bad at the departure airport, and I can use all of these tools on the ground to make a go/no-go decision.

Long story short...based on Dave's post...I probably would have gone. But I don't know if he posted all the information, or if there was more...

Nevertheless...I commend him for his decision...He was the only one there...with all the information. I don't know anything about jets or 20,000 hail damage I would have been really sad if I had gone and had hail damage on my 310.

But again, if it doesn't work out for me I land short....if landing short was not an option, I would not have gone on a bet.

 

[Richard]

Robert, very interesting and informative post. I'm curious, by what means do you watch behind you to see if that option closes or stays open?

 

[Rudy]

I know this isn't quite the same but soon afret getting my license i told 3 people that i was taking them flying to Bolivar MO to eat! I woke up and the winds were pretty bad, gusting up to 20kts, and were suppose to get worse. Didn't feel comfortable with it so i called and had to tell them we couldn't. It was hard cause I didn't want to disappoint anyone, but now that i think of it it was probably a good choice.

 

[fgcason]

There was a 30kt direct 90d xwind at base and fss said a continuous -as in, unbroken - line of tz's from S of DFW to well into Mexico, across our planned route; tops to fl500. &#%$&@!!

A friend of mine running the FBO front desk years ago told me a story of a well paid citation pilot (chief pilot I think) that was being pushed by the company supreme being executives to launch into similar conditions. The pilot said if they wait an hour the front would go through and they could leave. Nope, no deal, gotta go now or risk getting fired. He told them "we just don't have enough airplane to do this." After more sensible conversation, the pilot finally went out to the plane with the exec's knowing they got the best of a lowly pilot. When the pilot came back in, he had his bags, handed the owner the key to the plane and told him murder and suicide not to mention destroying a perfectly good airplane was not an option and they couldn't fire him because he just quit. Then he turned to my friend and asked where the local hotel and bus stop was and how to get there. The plane sat there for a week before someone else came to pick it up.

Don't beat yourself up. You made the right call for yourself. You'll always get another chance in the future if you keep exercising good judgement.

 

[poadeleted3]

I know this isn't quite the same but soon afret getting my license i told 3 people that i was taking them flying to Bolivar MO to eat! I woke up and the winds were pretty bad, gusting up to 20kts, and were suppose to get worse. Didn't feel comfortable with it so i called and had to tell them we couldn't. It was hard cause I didn't want to disappoint anyone, but now that i think of it it was probably a good choice.

Kind of the same thing happened with me. I was supposed to take Cathy to her parents' house for her Dad's birthday. Low clouds and Johnstown put the stop to that. Kinda killed showing off how useful the plane could be! But, we made the trip later, and had a beautiful day to fly. And we lived.

 

[Rudy]

Kind of the same thing happened with me. I was supposed to take Cathy to her parents' house for her Dad's birthday. Low clouds and Johnstown put the stop to that. Kinda killed showing off how useful the plane could be! But, we made the trip later, and had a beautiful day to fly. And we lived.

Yeah, it was windy and i am sure rough in the air, figured first timers wouldn't enjoy it and i knew me nor them would probably enjoy the landing much!haha

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I've been doing this a long time. In all sorts of weather and frequently by myself. Determine the facts, make your decision and move on. Second guessing yourself on a no go is a total waste of time.

 

[Richard]

I've been doing this a long time. In all sorts of weather and frequently by myself. Determine the facts, make your decision and move on. Second guessing yourself on a no go is a total waste of time.

Second guessing, yes. But there is a lesson in there somewhere and spending some time reflecting on the moment ususally reveals the lesson.

 

[gkainz]

...handed the owner the key to the plane and told him murder and suicide not to mention destroying a perfectly good airplane was not an option and they couldn't fire him because he just quit.

Smart man! Hopefully we can all exercise such good judgement.

 

[RobertGerace]

Robert, very interesting and informative post. I'm curious, by what means do you watch behind you to see if that option closes or stays open?

Richard,

WSI has a text feature that will give me the TAF and METAR for lots of airports both ahead and behind. I keep up with weather behind that way to the extent possible.

On the rare occasions that I can't find what I need, I revert to the radio.

 

[RobertGerace]

I agree with JR. Second guessing a no-go makes you feel terrible. So I tend to use slow-go instead of no-go.

Take my night flight to BWI...I originally planned to make the flight at 6pm to be able to go around the buildups visually...but the weather looked really bad...so I delayed 3 hours.

But as a private pilot with no commercial pax or cargo to worry about...I just make my schedules work. Were I on a 'schedule' and the choice is go-now or cancel...I would cancel MUCH more often...

 

[Bones]

Dave,

Don't loose any sleep over it. I know those are tough decisions to make when you have paying Pax ready to go. I have had to make that decision a couple of times in the King Air and Lear and I know its not fun. My mentors and fellow pilots gave me the same advice many here have given you. Thats what we get paid the big bucks for and thats what the Left Seat is all about making that call. If you are fortuante to have a co-pilot then you have another great resource to help you make that call and go over all the variables. If it does work, it doesn't work.

I try to remind myself that my pax are paying for a smooth, SAFE ride. If I scar them, trying to force a situation, then I have potentially lost their business forever, tarnished my rep and that of the company. Guys get FIRED for that stuff....guys get hired for making good decisions like you made.

Good job.

 

[Everskyward]

yeah, thanks.. jets are supposed to *never* cancel, right?

Ha! You're kidding, right?

We cancel on occasion (and I fly one of those airplanes that goes higher than yours), but usually we'll give them options first. We can go later, go somewhere else, etc. Then the ball is back in their court.

My goal is never to end up on the front page of USA Today.

 

[wsuffa]

I was riding in back of a G-IV jet one time and heard the CEO giving the pilot a boatload of crap for picking up turbulance on the decent into Atlanta. This was the same one that pushed for on-time departure. Paid the big bucks for what, exactly?

 

[TMetzinger]

Now that insurers are exercising more influence than the FAA in setting the minimums in a 135 operators procedures, the number of "fly anywhere, anytime, no matter what" freight dogs seems to be declining, though they still exist.

I'm personally familiar with an operator that traded in a couple of piston twins on a Caravan. You'd think the Caravan, with it's deicing, radar, and turbine power, would increase the dispatch rate... Nope, the insurance company required changes to the dispatch policy which drove the rate of wx related cancellations up. The maintenance related cancellations went way down, though.

 

[Bill]

Today was my debut, 'my chance'- but it didn't work out.
At least I didn't screw it up - but I still feel crummy.

Nah, you showed good PIC judgement, and you'll get your chance.

 

[trombair]

good judgement...

i heard Rod Machado once say "All of the truly important deciscions you will ever make in an airplane are made long before you ever climb into the cockpit".

i think you "used your superior judgement to avoid a situation which would require the use of the skills of a superior airman."

'course i've always thought that one of the skills of a superior airman IS his/her superior judgement.

ya done right, dave!

btw, speaking of hail, check this out:

 

[Everskyward]

Nah, you showed good PIC judgement, and you'll get your chance.

I'm thinking he has already because this thread was from last year!

Reading through the replies I was thinking, "What? When did I write that? I know I'm losing my mind but..." Then I looked at the dates.

 

[Bill]

Reading through the replies I was thinking, "What? When did I write that? I know I'm losing my mind but..." Then I looked at the dates.

Quick, I need those old WSJ copies, time to make some trades...

 

[judypilot]

OK, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that not going is NEVER the wrong decision.

Judy

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Its interesting reading things from soo long ago, especially your own thoughts at the time. (I didn't realize they were preserved in perpetuity btw.)
I remember being peeved, but yes it was the right thing, as JP says it is never a bad decision... it feels great to be still alive, to not have damaged an airplane, to not have wrecked my reputation, to still have the confidence of the principals.