I did the unthinkable...

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by SixPapaCharlie, Jul 14, 2018 at 1:05 AM.

  1. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    I told my wife what it cost to fly. :eek:

    So I have had my plane for 1 year and put 70 hours on it.
    Flying a Grumman Traveler, here are the numbers:
    AA5 Cost.jpg
    So $165/ hr all inclusive to fly ~118 kts plane w/ 860 lbs useful load

    Next year, oil changes will be done by me, there will be no ferrying charge, and hopefully no major repairs which would bring the numbers down to these:
    AA5 Cost2019.jpg

    At any rate This little blue plane took me to Gastons, Kentucky, Oklahoma, San Antonio, Missouri, and a bunch of $100 burger runs and it is about to take me to Osh!

    I feel like I am flying a plane that is a step above a basic trainer and the price per hour is not bad.

    Caveats:
    These are just the "ownership costs" and don't factor in the price of the plane.
    My plane has a payment associated with it but everyone's would be different based on cash vs. loan, etc.

    If my engine goes tits up, I will pay for it out of my pocket. I don't add money into any sort of maintenance account per hour.

    Also:
    In hindsight, I think I would be having a better month if I hadn't told her how much it costs.
    I am not going to tell her how many hours I flew the Cirrus. o_O
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018 at 8:01 AM
  2. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    Fact in life: You'll have at least 1-2 "major" maintenance events per year if you use your plane for 50-70 hours. Count 2-5k for those.
    It's still cheap to own an airplane.
     
  3. skier

    skier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’m just impressed that your monthly operating costs are similar to what I’ve seen quoted as monthly fees for hangars in my area.
     
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  4. Unit74

    Unit74 En-Route

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    I think you are foolin yer self a bit......add in your financed cost. It is total cost of ownership. On my ride, the monthly note is half of my expenses.
     
  5. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You just have to fly more hours ,so that the hourly rate goes down.
     
  6. Anymouse

    Anymouse En-Route

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    When I saw the title of the thread said, "I did the unthinkable..." I thought maybe you had slipped with flaps or something. I didn't think it was going to be this bad!
     
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  7. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    $4/hr in fuel? Yeah you Grumman guys always have to BS about something.
     
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  8. aeroknot

    aeroknot Filing Flight Plan

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    How did you find hanger for $150 per month or are you sharing it with 8 other guys?
     
  9. Rushie

    Rushie Cleared for Takeoff

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    I don't see "annual" in there. But my coffee hasn't kicked in yet so I may have missed it.
     
  10. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    eek. yup annual was $2300
    That is what an open T runs here
     
  11. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude

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    $4 per gallon is what that means, look far right and it says $32 per hour. Yeah, I know you knew that and you were just busting his chops, but this just isn’t POA if someone doesn’t misunderstand and get all ****y. :stirpot:
     
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  12. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    Eek! you're right. Updated the numbers.
     
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  13. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    Added but it is variable for me. My financed costs were done via a HELOC so the minimum payment is like a hundred bucks a month.
    What I actually pay changes since I don't want to pay it off a little quicker.
     
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  14. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I pay 185 a month for a 40-foot t-hangar with electric and completely enclosed with an electric bi-fold door.
     
  15. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    I'm afraid to do said calculation. And I have no wife to hide it from :)

    My insurance is 1.5x, my hangar is 10x, and my annuals run .5x. But I'm stuck in the "Need more hours to make it look good" camp.
     
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  16. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    My hangar is a killer at 2x what Bryan pays. All-in, my fixed costs are about $5k/yr on insurance, hangar, and taxes.

    After that, it's about $50/hr for fuel, oil, plugs, and tires.
     
  17. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I told my wife what it cost us to fly.
    She said "so what?"
     
  18. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

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    Doesn’t she post here? I think you’re just posturing and Mrs. 6PC has to approve your expenditures.
     
  19. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Here is my comparison to 6PC
    Monthly annual
    Insurance $146 $1,750
    Hangar 425 5,100
    Oil changes 83 1,000
    Starter/battery/misc 117 1,400
    ADSB 417 5,000
    fuel (130 hrs @ $4.5/g) 49 585
    Annual 200 2,400
    loan pmt - -

    Total $1,436 $17,235

    And this doesn't include things like hotels that we would have needed if we weren't flying "somewhere", or any other myriad of things I forgot.

    I tried twice to fix the format after copying from excel, then gave up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018 at 8:43 AM
  20. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    I think it's important to understand what the numbers look like... whether you share them with anyone or not.

    And I'm really, really happy to be flying what I am now.
     
  21. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    What about pool noodles, swimmies and sponges?
     
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  22. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    $1000 for oil changes???????
     
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  23. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't do them myself any more, so I pay my A&P to do them every three months, including oil analysis. About $250 a shot.
    12 qts oil = $84
    oil anal ~ 30
    1 hr labor 80
    ______
    $194 plus he charges for a small fee for supplies and things and there are always a few little squawks to be looked at, so $1,000/year is pretty close.
     
  24. cgrab

    cgrab Cleared for Takeoff

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    My numbers are similar for my Cardinal...a little more for hangar, a little less for annual since I do owner assisted. I did have a major avionics upgrade this year but that's a once in a lifetime event.

    My wife doesn't know the exact numbers but every time I question a shoe or jewelry purchase she looks me square in the eye and says "You have an airplane."
     
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  25. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    That's why it's 1k per year.
     
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  26. ChrisK

    ChrisK En-Route

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    /mumbles something about the dipstick
     
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  27. LoneAspen

    LoneAspen Line Up and Wait

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    Costs about the same to have it done behind the dumpster at 7-11 at 3am.
     
  28. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    Had the same reaction from my wife.
    Then she went out and bought another horse. :eek:
    So I thought "Game On", and went out and bought another airplane. :p
    I am going to regret this, I know... :(
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018 at 9:49 AM
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  29. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    I saw "did the unthinkable," thought someone bought an airplane. Then saw Sixie's name and had no idea what was going on.

    Now I understand the unthinkableness of his action: he is creating an artificial "hourly" cost for his fixed expenses, so that the cost goes down if he flies more.

    His chart should look like this:

    20180714_093809.jpg
    Which shows that his plane is costing $501.42 per month whether he flies or not, plus $37 for each flight hour. Because really, his hangar rent is not based on his flight hours and will cost the same $150 each month, whether his plane ever leaves it or not.

    Oops, there is also the Ownership Costs, which I forgot to tally up [just one disadvantage of using Excel on a tablet], another $5200 in annual, ferry and repairs.
     
  30. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    Only if you fly a hang glider. In all other cases this is a really, really bad idea.
    We all know in the back of our minds flying is a "risky" activity.
    No point in using spreadsheets and confessions to the spouse to bring all that to the conscious foreground. ;)
     
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  31. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    Having trouble with a couple of things on your chart.

    Looks like you are double dipping the fuel, as it is shown in both the "monthly" and "hourly" columns.
    The cost of the annual should be in the "monthly" column.

    I agree with your handling of the ferry cost as a one time expense; I would consider part of the cost of acquisition, not an operating expense.

    I put the expenses in three categories for mine: Fixed - independent of the Hobbs (insurance, hangar rent, annual inspection, etc), variable-correlated to the Hobbs (fuel, oil, landing/parking fees, all maintenance including anything resulting from the annual inspection) and opportunity cost (the cost of having capital tied up in the plane, either in the form of cash not available for something else, or the debt servicing cost if there is a loan against the plane).

    When one tallies up the all-in, complete cost of ownership one realizes why the best policy is to fergetaboutit and go flying. :blueplane::thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018 at 10:02 AM
  32. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    You can change your PoA name to SUPERMAN!
     
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  33. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    He said Hobbs... Why you dissin' Calvin?

    I guess I'm lucky my planes don't have Hobbs meters... I must be flying for free?!?
     
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  34. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

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    Is this all based off Hobbs (clock) hours or tach hours?
     
  35. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Numbers pretty much in line with my 4 banger single retract for the hours flown. So much for that retract cost penalty. I figured that out in hindsight after I traded from the Warrior. The added operating expenditures of additional systems were not inflection points in the least they way I had forecasted them to be. Capital entry has always been the real barrier for me when it comes to these comparisons, not opex and mx.
     
  36. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    Tach hours is all I have in my plane, besides an installed clock and my watch.

    Maintenance = tach hours.

    Flight Time = clock time.

    Fuel changes, endurance, etc., are all based on the clock, since it doesn't vary depending on RPMs.
     
  37. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yipes. I do mine for like 75.00. I only put in 7qts since anything above 7 gets blown out in the first hour of flight anyway and I'm getting my oil weight cheaper than what you're paying.
     
  38. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Hagar is just over 200mo, but I also use it for other stuff too

    Annuals are about $1200 yr (owner assist)

    Plane burns 15GPH of 100LL (no auto fuel STC for the engine)


    That’s really all I track, I change the oil at 50hrs, some X/C with a little camguard, not much airworthy needed mx, mostly me upgrading things or being OCD about the plane.

    Think if you try to break down every little thing into a hourly number you could make owning a used Honda seem like something only the rich and famous could afford.
     
  39. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Pre-takeoff checklist

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    First rule of flight club. Don't talk about flight club.
     
  40. AKBill

    AKBill Pattern Altitude

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    Your first mistake is keeping track of what you spent. Pay the bills and burn the receipt...:rolleyes: