I did an overhead break on Sunday!

kimberlyanne546

kimberlyanne546

Final Approach
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Kimberly
Will write more later, hired a new plane / new CFI / new flight school / new airport on Sunday.

Lots of "ideas" for the lesson, most of which didn't happen because my performance was poor, but on the way back I mentioned how I don't like towered airports.

Flying out of a towered airport, I explained, means I don't know what they are going to ask me to do - take the "other" runway, fly left or right pattern, do a 270, etc. I don't like not knowing what is going to happen.

So on the way back in to the field, he mentions they can also ask you to do a shorter approach or an overhead. He requested the overhead for us!

They told me approved at or below 1500 feet (TPA at KSTS is around 1,000).... then once mid runway they told me to break left. Super cool and I did a descending left turn, lost 500 feet, ended up on a downwind at TPA and did the abeam the numbers thing for a normal downwind / base / final / landing.

When / why would a tower ask me to do this? Would it allow them to get one more airplane out underneath me? And why did they say 1500? Was it to allow me some room for error or descent in my turn?

I went from not knowing what an overhead break was to doing one myself! Though during the turn he told me not to be a fighter pilot and to watch how much bank I used LOL.
 
One of the problems teaching light plane pilots how to perform a break is getting them not to do like they see jet fighters do -- snap into near-vertical bank and put 4g's on the plane. If you're entering the break at 350 knots, that's necessary to bleed energy and stay within the airport traffic area. If you're entering the break at 105 knots, all it will do is put you on downwind between the runway and the parallel taxiway, and that's a) not the right place to be, and b) kind of hard to land from. Our Grumman formation manual calls for 100-120 KIAS on entry and a level turn with 35-40 degrees of bank for separation, which works very well for us.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Flying out of a towered airport, I explained, means I don't know what they are going to ask me to do - take the "other" runway, fly left or right pattern, do a 270, etc. I don't like not knowing what is going to happen.
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It's mostly what you're familiar with that breeds comfort. If you mostly flew from towered airports you'd dislike having to figure out how to enter the pattern and sequence yourself into the flow. But at most towered airports there are plenty of clues indicating what to expect (most times). Listen to the tower controller when you're still 30 miles away and you're likely to hear repeats of the instructions given to pilots coming from the same general direction and chances are good that you'll be given the same thing. Most towered fields broadcast the runway in use on the ATIS but that can change if the wind is light and/or shifting.

So on the way back in to the field, he mentions they can also ask you to do a shorter approach or an overhead. He requested the overhead for us!

They told me approved at or below 1500 feet (TPA at KSTS is around 1,000).... then once mid runway they told me to break left. Super cool and I did a descending left turn, lost 500 feet, ended up on a downwind at TPA and did the abeam the numbers thing for a normal downwind / base / final / landing.

When / why would a tower ask me to do this? Would it allow them to get one more airplane out underneath me? And why did they say 1500? Was it to allow me some room for error or descent in my turn?
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AFaIK, (at least at non-military fields) the tower will never ASK you to fly an overhead approach, like SVFR that's something the pilot has to request. I suspect you were instructed to fly the overhead at or below 1500 because higher performance airplanes might want to start from that altitude for various reasons and the controller gave you the "standard" response to a request for an overhead. It would have been perfectly acceptable (and probably beneficial to you) to start the overhead at your "normal" pattern altitude as long as the instruction was given as "at or below..."

And FWIW, in a fast airplane a fairly steep bank is required most of the way around the first 180° turn simply to reduce the airspeed enough to lower the gear and flaps. In something slower (e.g. 172/182) you probably don't need to use more than a 30° bank but it's also common to roll quickly into at least 45° bank and then ease back to 30° as soon as you hit 45° of bank. Beginning the approach at or near cruise speed might dictate holding the steep bank longer.

I went from not knowing what an overhead break was to doing one myself! Though during the turn he told me not to be a fighter pilot and to watch how much bank I used LOL.[/QUOTE]
 
You can use lots of bank, just keep the throttle in and pretend you're not flying a draggy 100kt cessna! Defeats the purpose of the maneuver but fun
 
dell30rb said:
You can use lots of bank, just keep the throttle in and pretend you're not flying a draggy 100kt cessna! Defeats the purpose of the maneuver but fun
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I don't care how much throttle you use in a 100-knot Cessna -- if you wrap it up, you'll end up way too tight to the runway for anything but a near-split-S maneuver to touchdown.
 
Wow Kim! What a great experience!
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't care how much throttle you use in a 100-knot Cessna -- if you wrap it up, you'll end up way too tight to the runway for anything but a near-split-S maneuver to touchdown.
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good point, "lots of bank" would be an exaggeration. If you used 45 degrees of bank into the downwind (assuming maneuvering speed 110 kts and no wind) would that set you up for a nice 30degree bank from downwind to final at about 70 kts and a notch of flaps?
 
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Where do you drop the gear in a retract?
 
spinfire said:
Where do you drop the gear in a retract?
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* not an expert but I think the idea is to start the initial 180 degree turn at high speed, and be below the gear deployment speed when you roll out. So, on downwind.
 
spinfire said:
Where do you drop the gear in a retract?
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Typically, when rolling wings-level on downwind. If you did the break right, you should be below Vlo at that point, and you don't want to be making configuration changes in the break when you should be focusing on the plane ahead for interval and alignment.

Of course, I remember a couple of times when we entered the break a couple of hundred knots faster than recommended (we're talking Grumman A-6 now, not AA-5), and didn't get slow enough to extend the gear until the base turn, but that's what hot-dogging will get you. And then there was the time Babbo entered the break at Cubi so fast, he chopped the throttles so hard he went past the detents and shut both engines down. That one ended badly -- with the jet in Subic Bay and the crew in parachutes.
 
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kimberlyanne546 said:
So on the way back in to the field, he mentions they can also ask you to do a shorter approach or an overhead. He requested the overhead for us!

They told me approved at or below 1500 feet (TPA at KSTS is around 1,000).... then once mid runway they told me to break left. Super cool and I did a descending left turn, lost 500 feet, ended up on a downwind at TPA and did the abeam the numbers thing for a normal downwind / base / final / landing.

When / why would a tower ask me to do this? Would it allow them to get one more airplane out underneath me? And why did they say 1500? Was it to allow me some room for error or descent in my turn?

I went from not knowing what an overhead break was to doing one myself! Though during the turn he told me not to be a fighter pilot and to watch how much bank I used LOL.
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Cool!!!

In a nutshell, an overhead approach is just like flying a full pattern, but all the straight sections have been removed.
 
denverpilot said:
Downwind is still straight.
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Not if you do it right. T-6A II approach end break. 200KIAS, Idle/boards over the numbers, below Vlo about abeam, configure in the turn, check handle down three green at the perch , check torque back up to the teens, land. The whole thing in the turn. I fully discourage the practice by students of course, we're in the business of killing any fun there is left in flying in this new sensitive "we're all warriors...even though this branch hasn't seen real war in decades" military, I digress. :rolleyes2:

T-38 was a little more touchy because you had to be under 45deg bank in order to deploy the gear per the tech order, plus you're coming up the pipe at 3-hondo' in a category E wingless contraption. But not impossible. :D

As to the RV crowd pulling that stunt. Yeah, real cool... :rofl: Reminds me of some AC's I flew with in my early years in the BUFF requesting over-nugget breaks at the home field...30 degree bank break, on an aircraft with a 60 second flap deployment schedule mind you. About as exciting as watching my cat's second grooming application and about as embarrassing as admitting I have cats as a divorced man in the first place. :D
 
gismo said:
AFaIK, (at least at non-military fields) the tower will never ASK you to fly an overhead approach, like SVFR that's something the pilot has to request. I suspect you were instructed to fly the overhead at or below 1500 because higher performance airplanes might want to start from that altitude for various reasons and the controller gave you the "standard" response to a request for an overhead. It would have been perfectly acceptable (and probably beneficial to you) to start the overhead at your "normal" pattern altitude as long as the instruction was given as "at or below..."
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It wasn't a true overhead (as Ron previously pointed out to me), but at RNO once, they had me cross over the field at 1500 AGL and enter left downwind, midfield.
 
John221us said:
It wasn't a true overhead (as Ron previously pointed out to me), but at RNO once, they had me cross over the field at 1500 AGL and enter left downwind, midfield.
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Completely different thing than an overhead break.
 
Yeah I guess I was thinking about typical OBs done by the light aircraft crowd. It's pretty rare to see them done as a continuous turn.

Well it sounds like Kim had fun anyway. That's the main part.
 
A sad day...Kim has gone over to the dark side. :D Just kidding. Sounds like you have a good CFI who will keep things interesting. Congratulations.
 
spinfire said:
Where do you drop the gear in a retract?
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As the others above have said once wings level. We would execute with 60 degrees of bank, (max for the H ) roll out at 180kts and drop 50% flaps and then when we hit Vlo (165 ) drop the gear. Not quite as flashy as a F-15, but then we had a head and a coffee maker!! :yesnod:
 
Geico266 said:
You better get training! Kim is one up on you! :rofl:
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I've got a TON of training to do to catch up to her!

But just for kicks, I'll do a quick overhead break during my next solo. :lol: (Just kidding).
 
Tracey said:
I've got a TON of training to do to catch up to her!

But just for kicks, I'll do a quick overhead break during my next solo. :lol: (Just kidding).
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Atta girl! Now you just need to go for a ride in an RV! You'll throw rocks at your Cessna. :yesnod:


:happydance:
 
Nice!

What the other fellow said about listening to the tower. You listen to the ATIS and find out what runway(s) they are using. Then listen to tower to see how they are routing traffic. At my home airport, they usually put you on something that makes it easy for you, either a base or a straight in.

The big gotcha with towered airports for new pilots like us is unfamiliarity with the airport. They put you on a long final and you have not even located the airport. They assume you know where it is and are familiar with the runway layout. Request an overhead or overfly for an unfamiliar towered airport. Have the airport diagram in front of you. Get comfortable with where you are going to land and then land. If you need a bit more time, ask to orbit. Take your time, feel comfortable.
 
alfadog said:
Nice!

What the other fellow said about listening to the tower. You listen to the ATIS and find out what runway(s) they are using. Then listen to tower to see how they are routing traffic. At my home airport, they usually put you on something that makes it easy for you, either a base or a straight in.

The big gotcha with towered airports for new pilots like us is unfamiliarity with the airport. They put you on a long final and you have not even located the airport. They assume you know where it is and are familiar with the runway layout. Request an overhead or overfly for an unfamiliar towered airport. Have the airport diagram in front of you. Get comfortable with where you are going to land and then land. If you need a bit more time, ask to orbit. Take your time, feel comfortable.
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I never thought of things this way. I was so worried on my long XC that I didn't have the airport in sight, I circled and circled outside of the class D five mile radius. I should have just kept going (I had GPS) but I wanted to "know" where I was landing. Next time I will keep in mind that I can request to overfly the airport. Not sure if this will work with busy towered airports though.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I never thought of things this way. I was so worried on my long XC that I didn't have the airport in sight, I circled and circled outside of the class D five mile radius. I should have just kept going (I had GPS) but I wanted to "know" where I was landing. Next time I will keep in mind that I can request to overfly the airport. Not sure if this will work with busy towered airports though.
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It should work. And if you are at 2500 AGL, you do not even need permission to orbit over their airport (check the sectional for their upper limit). I would still let them know my intention. Do what you need to do to be prepared and comfortable. Do not let anybody (pax, ATC, anybody) rush you. If ATC wants you do do something and you are not ready, request a vector away.
 
alfadog said:
It should work. And if you are at 2500 AGL, you do not even need permission to orbit over their airport (check the sectional for their upper limit). I would still let them know my intention. Do what you need to do to be prepared and comfortable. Do not let anybody (pax, ATC, anybody) rush you. If ATC wants you do do something and you are not ready, request a vector away.
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Maybe that has been my issue all along. I've been doing a lot of flying with the "pros" just sitting quietly in the right seat. They have thousands of hours and their landings are amazing. I must be forgetting that I am not them, when I go on my own flights. I do not need to do what they did, I need to do what I need to do. I have forgotten that there are many "right ways" to accomplish the same task.
 
gismo said:
AFaIK, (at least at non-military fields) the tower will never ASK you to fly an overhead approach,
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I was asked by OSH tower if I wanted to do the overhead break or a straight in once.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Maybe that has been my issue all along. I've been doing a lot of flying with the "pros" just sitting quietly in the right seat. They have thousands of hours and their landings are amazing. I must be forgetting that I am not them, when I go on my own flights. I do not need to do what they did, I need to do what I need to do. I have forgotten that there are many "right ways" to accomplish the same task.
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Ya, that makes sense. Fly some with non-pilots or pilots at your own level or below. Not sayin' drop your friends, just drop the training wheels a bit :D
 
alfadog said:
Ya, that makes sense. Fly some with non-pilots or pilots at your own level or below. Not sayin' drop your friends, just drop the training wheels a bit :D
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I do have a friend who has the same number of hours (pilot). I don't have any non-pilots right now to take but that is because most of my friends are married or having kids and I don't see them much. I could take my boyfriend or him plus his friends but that usually costs money and takes planning and their / his schedule is nuts. Most likely we will do a camping trip with the dog(s) this summer in the 172, somewhere close by. I plan to also do a one day mountain flying seminar to Lake Tahoe.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I do have a friend who has the same number of hours (pilot). I don't have any non-pilots right now to take but that is because most of my friends are married or having kids and I don't see them much. I could take my boyfriend or him plus his friends but that usually costs money and takes planning and their / his schedule is nuts. Most likely we will do a camping trip with the dog(s) this summer in the 172, somewhere close by. I plan to also do a one day mountain flying seminar to Lake Tahoe.
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Remember that your BF and friends get to split the rental and fuel costs of the airplane with you on a shared basis if you all have related business at the destination (all sightseeing or camping or $100 burger, etc). I try to get as many folks along to share as I can. Had the Arrow full for the LSA Expo.

The camping sounds nice. I did the airplane camping thing at Sun 'n' Fun with my son and my friend. It was a blast. I want to do more of that.
 
alfadog said:
Ya, that makes sense. Fly some with non-pilots or pilots at your own level or below. Not sayin' drop your friends, just drop the training wheels a bit :D
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Unfortunately, I scared off one pilot that day. Oh well. She wants to only fly with more experienced pilots now, not some newbie like me. Real wake up call for me though. I knew I wasn't the world's greatest pilot and everything but that was a sad day. Then again, she hasn't flown since getting cert in 2010, is in "no hurry to fly PIC" and took 5 instrument lessons already without one solo. I think we have different goals. I can name FIVE OR TEN student pilots or low time private pilots who would not mind flying with me at all. I won't count all the high time pilots since they know they can land my plane for me anyways. It is a real shame I had such a bad landing in front of her, lost a potential flight buddy that day.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Unfortunately, I scared off one pilot that day. Oh well. She wants to only fly with more experienced pilots now, not some newbie like me. Real wake up call for me though. I knew I wasn't the world's greatest pilot and everything but that was a sad day. Then again, she hasn't flown since getting cert in 2010, is in "no hurry to fly PIC" and took 5 instrument lessons already without one solo. I think we have different goals. I can name FIVE OR TEN student pilots or low time private pilots who would not mind flying with me at all. I won't count all the high time pilots since they know they can land my plane for me anyways. It is a real shame I had such a bad landing in front of her, lost a potential flight buddy that day.
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If she hasn't flown since 2010, it's possible she's just forgotten how "less than perfect" HER landings were. She may get out and do some landings on her own and figure out that yours wasn't all THAT bad. Or, she may go another two years (or a lifetime) with a virtually unused private pilot certificate. I would imagine some people get burnt out on flying by the time they get their cert, or they get it but are just too scared to fly alone.

In other words... my bet is she'll either eventually be your flying buddy, or she'll be nobody's, ever. Don't take it personally.
 
DaleB said:
If she hasn't flown since 2010, it's possible she's just forgotten how "less than perfect" HER landings were. She may get out and do some landings on her own and figure out that yours wasn't all THAT bad. Or, she may go another two years (or a lifetime) with a virtually unused private pilot certificate. I would imagine some people get burnt out on flying by the time they get their cert, or they get it but are just too scared to fly alone.

In other words... my bet is she'll either eventually be your flying buddy, or she'll be nobody's, ever. Don't take it personally.
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Thanks, Dale. But it is not a proud day for me when I scare away a pilot who says in email:

"For me at least, if I am going to fly right seat with someone else, I need to be 100% confident in their ability to fly and land the plane."

Ouch, that hurts.

And then:

"Two new, inexperienced people flying a plane together is probably not the safest way to gain more hours, even if it is cheaper."

(See the other thread where a pilot ENCOURAGED me to fly with non pilots or low time pilots)

To each his own I guess.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
"For me at least, if I am going to fly right seat with someone else, I need to be 100% confident in their ability to fly and land the plane."
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Dang that's harsh. I think Dale's right-- she forgot how landings can be.
 
Tracey said:
Dang that's harsh. I think Dale's right-- she forgot how landings can be.
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It is OK. I wouldn't want a person "freaking out" every time I pulled a Kimberly on her. I already told everyone on POA that I am the world's suckiest pilot, and - with only a few exceptions - I have heard "that is OK you will get better" from most everyone. That day I wasn't quick enough to respond to a tricky "no delay" call from the tower so the CFI did the reply, also he took over radios (and the plane) one other time. I don't mind when CFI's do stuff like that but she may have seen it as a big gap in my skill set. Especially since she moved here from another state, ATC job pending. Wonder if they put her in a local TRACON, if I will recognize her voice one day. Doubt it.
 
I had about 500 hours before I was 100% confident in my ability to land the plane, and probably had another thousand before I realized I was wrong. Somewhere around the 5000-hour mark, I finally really figured it all out.
 
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