I am impressed with MAG. :yes:

SkyHog

SkyHog

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Everything Offends Me
I need to preface this with 2 things: I am not bashing MAG in any way, shape or form, and I still think that Troy Martin has made major mistakes and not atoned for them.

Today, I looked at his website, and you know what? He's got a good idea going. He is trying to start a nationwide chain of flight schools that fit decent criteria. One of the things I like the most about his idea is the way he will employ CFIs. Minimum of 1000hrs instructing time, and they will be fulltime, salaried employees. That would mean CFIs are CFIs and not time builders.

I also like the idea of the nationwide chain. I mentioned something similar a while back about nationwide plane rental, and this seems like the first step. I have been saying that the problem with general aviation today is not the new pilots, but rather that the older pilots are not giving the newer pilots a chance to prove themselves. I think something like this could help solve this problem.

For the first time since his mistaken and fateful flight, I have to say: "Go Troy!"

And it feels weird saying it.
 
OK, who are you, and what have you done with Nick???? :confused: :D ;)
 
LOL I thought the same thing at first.

Thanks for sharing your agreeable idea Nick.
 
I forgot to add, one thing he is missing, and that will hamper his success is someone who is well versed in aviation as a partner or at least high up (no, I'm not pining for a job). He admits himself that he doesn't have the knowledge or desire to be a pilot or CFI, but if he brought someone in that was a pilot, and had real decision making capabilities, he'd be golden.

Oh, and an apology would be nice too :D
 
SkyHog said:
I forgot to add, one thing he is missing, and that will hamper his success is someone who is well versed in aviation as a partner or at least high up (no, I'm not pining for a job). He admits himself that he doesn't have the knowledge or desire to be a pilot or CFI, but if he brought someone in that was a pilot, and had real decision making capabilities, he'd be golden.

Oh, and an apology would be nice too :D
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I would also add that I think he needs someone that also is well versed in instructional design and teaching theory.

I think his idea is good I just do not see him putting the right resources together to get it done.
 
He has a complete lack of understanding of the general aviation industry. The vast majority of his website is nothing but marketing lingo in hopes of attracting investors that also know nothing about the industry. If you read some of the crap on his website about how he will reduce the cost of insurance you'll understand quick. His website makes him look like a joke. It's cheesy and full of all kinds of crap. I'm sorry but you don't see any established company with something like that. There is a reason for that.

If you don't understand something you can easily build a false reality of the market in your own head and in others heads. I'm not saying it's not possible for this idea to work. In fact I hope it works out well for him.

That said there is no way in hell I would give him a penny of my money. He's very likely if not almost postively sure to fail. Miracles do happen. But don't count on it.
 
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Wouldn't it seem that if the MAG program were deemed a sure success that John/Martha, or Hal Shavers, would have already had it working?

HR
 
Jesse got it right IMHO - this reminds me of the dotcom Halcyon days of 98/99/00 I had the pleasure of living through. Fancy business model, great idea that will revolutionize the world, shiney PowerPoint slides, and where is Kosmo and the other bazillion failures today?
 
Lawreston said:
Wouldn't it seem that if the MAG program were deemed a sure success that John/Martha, or Hal Shavers, would have already had it working?

HR
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What about American Flyers?
 
Lawreston said:
Wouldn't it seem that if the MAG program were deemed a sure success that John/Martha, or Hal Shavers, would have already had it working?

HR
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I would be more inlcinded to give them the benfit of the doubt in getting something like it done and done well. But maybe they are making a pretty good living with what they have and don't see the increase in the hassle factor being worth the effort for the rewards. But i do tend to agree with your point.
 
tomcat said:
Jesse got it right IMHO - this reminds me of the dotcom Halcyon days of 98/99/00 I had the pleasure of living through. Fancy business model, great idea that will revolutionize the world, shiney PowerPoint slides, and where is Kosmo and the other bazillion failures today?
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Do you remember the economy starting on 9/12/01? I had a hard time keeping my business going after that. Took nearly 3 years to get back up to par.
 
the nationally standardized flight school thing has been attempted before, ie Cessna Pilot Centers. They knew training and airplanes and it still didnt work very well
 
Michael said:
Do you remember the economy starting on 9/12/01? I had a hard time keeping my business going after that. Took nearly 3 years to get back up to par.
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Yes, I remember September 11 and among its many impacts the economic one.
 
Uh Nick. I think that shooting at your apartment has scrambled your brain. Now, if Troy wants to pay me $100k to be his chief CFI I may share your sentiment. Until then the dude just needs to say "I screwed up."
 
Troy Whistman said:
Thanks, Nick!
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Troy?

48m.jpg
 
The idea isn't what is wrong, it is who is controlling the buisness.
Troy speaks about partnerships with aircraft makers, insurance companies etc. which is a perfectly fine idea, but his approach is where the problem lies.
This is a guy who only manages infuriate people, and that is his basic problem. He's angered pilots with caustic postings on his site, and I believe that he ticked off the airport board at Lancaster so much that he had to look for another place to put his grand faux marble headquarters.

I'd be tempted to believe that this really was the new wave, had the Troy Martin website looked more like a legitimate buisness plan rather than a shrine to Troy Martin, prancing around like the Donald.
 
infotango said:
Troy speaks about partnerships with aircraft makers, insurance companies etc. which is a perfectly fine idea,
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The partnerships also did not exist. Why does Troy switch which aircraft he's going to use all the time? Because the manufacturer lays the legal smack down on him.

Troy also seemed to enjoy attempting to threaten or intimidate me with the great "Martin Aviation Legal Department"
 
tonycondon said:
the nationally standardized flight school thing has been attempted before, ie Cessna Pilot Centers. They knew training and airplanes and it still didnt work very well
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"No Pilot Left Behind"
 
Pilots and potential pilots will not pay the costs necessary to support that type of program in any significant numbers, no matter how beneficial it would be in educational terms.
 
Lawreston said:
Wouldn't it seem that if the MAG program were deemed a sure success that John/Martha, or Hal Shavers, would have already had it working?

HR
Click to expand...

Exactly right. While I like the idea of 1000 hour CFIs, the market won't support it. There's no real evidence that more hours of instruction given automatically makes you a better CFI.

Also, look at how few (comparatively) NAFI Master CFIs there are.
 
TMetzinger said:
Exactly right. While I like the idea of 1000 hour CFIs, the market won't support it. There's no real evidence that more hours of instruction given automatically makes you a better CFI.

Also, look at how few (comparatively) NAFI Master CFIs there are.
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Quite right.
I recently stood down from the otherwise excellent NAFI Master CFI program after 4 years (2 hitches) because it simply wasn't worth my time (=$ and headaches) in their weighty documentation requirements even though my CFI qualifications before and since those hitches have remained in excess of their requirements.
 
Lawreston said:
Wouldn't it seem that if the MAG program were deemed a sure success that John/Martha, or Hal Shavers, would have already had it working?

HR
Click to expand...

So are you insinuating that no one can come up with new idea in aviation, because the Kings would have already done it if there was money to be made?

I don't buy it.

And to others: Come on now. Troy Martin explains very well how he can run this business without having the correct knowledge himself. There are new statements on the site beyond the original inflated "Hey guys, I have a business idea and I'm going to speak really vaguely about it now."

I think he's serious now, and I think his idea is a good one.
 
I looked really hard but I never found the MAG booth at Expo. Of course, I didn't use all the bathrooms.
 
Richard said:
I looked really hard but I never found the MAG booth at Expo. Of course, I didn't use all the bathrooms.
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I don't care who ya are, that's funny right there.

(Looks like a perfect sig line.)
 
I agree with Nick. If we are too bitter about the past experiences, we will never see changes for the better.
 
Doodz, it's not a question of bitterness at the past; what happened with Mr. Martin in the ADIZ was, straight up, both the instructor's fault and responsibility, and Troy was just the un-lucky victim.

But.

I still find his "vision" for an aviation business to be silly. There is nothing new or original; he suggests operating a flight school and maintenance operation with high standards, and purports to call that unique?

There are plenty of 141 schools which meet all of the stringent criteria Mr. Martin professes to have invented, save and except that they don't use his name.

It is a slick web site, but it is nothing but a bucket of HTML, Flash and Quicktime, in search of a message.

MAG is to general aviation pilot training as Crystal Airways is to airlines. See: www.crystalairways.com
 
I really have a hard time taking this dude seriously. I mean I have to stifle the laughter that just wells up spontaneously.

BTW his once partner in terror, the indomitable H "J" Scheaffer is a student pilot again (and that's NOT funny).
 
Adam Pirkle said:
Seems like Martin has set up a nice Cargo Cult Business.
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Ahhh. I first heard that story from a couple of guys I met at a conference whose company was called Cargo Gods. That's where they got the name!
 
Have you see the Martin Aviaiton Groups Webseit lately.

It seems like he is more concerned about his high end clothing line and his "The Martin Organization" (Not to be confused with "The Trump Organization" - I think he's been watching to much of the Apprentice!)

He is all talk and no action.
 
SCCutler said:
It is a slick web site, but it is nothing but a bucket of HTML, Flash and Quicktime, in search of a message.
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Counselor, you are as eloquent and pointed as always.
 
SkyHog said:
I need to preface this with 2 things: I am not bashing MAG in any way, shape or form, and I still think that Troy Martin has made major mistakes and not atoned for them.

Today, I looked at his website, and you know what? He's got a good idea going. He is trying to start a nationwide chain of flight schools that fit decent criteria. One of the things I like the most about his idea is the way he will employ CFIs. Minimum of 1000hrs instructing time, and they will be fulltime, salaried employees. That would mean CFIs are CFIs and not time builders.

I also like the idea of the nationwide chain. I mentioned something similar a while back about nationwide plane rental, and this seems like the first step. I have been saying that the problem with general aviation today is not the new pilots, but rather that the older pilots are not giving the newer pilots a chance to prove themselves. I think something like this could help solve this problem.

For the first time since his mistaken and fateful flight, I have to say: "Go Troy!"

And it feels weird saying it.
Click to expand...
How is Troy doing these days?
 
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And over here we'll have the elevator taxiways that lead to the vertical rocket assist runways!
 

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Looks like my prediction written by my then 18-year-old self wasn't too far off base.
 
jesse said:
Looks like my prediction written by my then 18-year-old self wasn't too far off base.
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yea but that was back when your threads were getting locked. now you are locking threads :D
 
I hate to say this, because I like Rod Rakic personally, but OpenAirplane is headed for the same result, IMHO.

Very few people *need* to travel by airliner to somewhere else to rent a GA airplane. Without insurers backing it, and what incentive do they have to do so...? OpenAirplane will disappear over time.

(Sorry Rod, if you read this and disagree I will understand, but it's my honest opinion and we all still love ya, buddy.)

Whoever revived this thread, it was an interesting read.
 
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