Hybrid hype

[Missa]

Missa, do you think oil technology has remaind static over the last 50 or 60 years? I think not. While that may have been true in the 40s and 50s, I don't think that study has any validity today.

Unless you're suggesting that changes in technology would lower the oil's performance, I don't see how it wouldn't still have some relavance. Technology changes usually improve performance not lower it, unless you have some inside information on an oil company conspiracy to reduce the performance of my oil so that I have to buy more of it!

Even being 50+ year old research it still shows that what the manufacture recomends is not necessarly the best thing and proves my point that all the companies care about is how to make money.

Missa
- Oh and the timeline for the report is more likely from the 30s it was when he was still in school before WWII (durring the war he was already designing tooling for the bombers at Willow Run, go gramps!) I would have to dig it out of the family archives to be sure on the date.

 

[Iceman]

Not to delve into religious auto wars, but I've owned Japanese, German, and American vehicles. I've found the overall cost of maint/repairs of the American cars to be on par with the BEST of the Japanese cars I've owned. The Germans are not even in the competition, best for driving feel, fun, and experience, but maint/repairs costs are almost another order of magnitude.

American cars MAY (model choice is more important) break down a little more than the Japanese cars, but the dirt cheap parts and maint keep them on an even level. IMHO, YMMV.

I agree!!! I'm so tired of people discounting American made goods. I spend a lot of time on the race track and have seen A LOT more BMW's, Porsche's, MB break down more often than American made cars. These cars are driven hard and if there is a weak link in any components they will turn up at the track.

 

[Anthony]

I agree!!! I'm so tired of people discounting American made goods. I spend a lot of time on the race track and have seen A LOT more BMW's, Porsche's, MB break down more often than American made cars. These cars are driven hard and if there is a weak link in any components they will turn up at the track.

Has anyone seen the new Pontiac Solstice? Now that is cool. R/T had a write up on it.

 

[wsuffa]

Not to delve into religious auto wars, but I've owned Japanese, German, and American vehicles. I've found the overall cost of maint/repairs of the American cars to be on par with the BEST of the Japanese cars I've owned. The Germans are not even in the competition, best for driving feel, fun, and experience, but maint/repairs costs are almost another order of magnitude.

American cars MAY (model choice is more important) break down a little more than the Japanese cars, but the dirt cheap parts and maint keep them on an even level. IMHO, YMMV.

Bill, it was quality and customer service.

GM stuck me with a $3,000 tranny repair bill on an 12 month old car. It was the THIRD transmission that had to be put in the car... I bought the car new. GM zone reps gave me the "screw you", and refused to honor either the warranty or the lemon law. While the repairs were going on, the dealer left it parked on the street in a tow-away zone, costing me a ticket and towing charge. They ate the ticket after I threatend to sue.

Another local GM dealer was known for taking the keys to your trade in while you took a test drive. They'd throw 'em on the roof of the dealership. GM refused to deal with them.

Never had a lick of problems with Honda, Nissan, Toyota, or Volvo. Volvo had some quality issues, but were quickly and efficiently fixed by the dealer. They are very expensive, though.

I agree about German cars, no European cars in general. Lots of trouble. The Mercedes C-series is a piece of junk.

 

[Everskyward]

If you can sell lots at a $4000 dollar premium but you are still losing $10000+/vehicle. This makes you want to produce more how?

Well, that's certainly true, however, it's like that whenever you start selling a new product, isn't it? The cost of development spread over only a few units makes each unit cost more. They can hope that their new technology catches on in popularity so they can sell more units and they eventually start making a profit.

 

[silver-eagle]

Me, too. GM lost my business 18 years ago. Never again.

Ford is the only domestic I'd even consider, and even then, I'd probably choose their Mazda or Volvo product. 'Though if I were to do a Mazda 3, I might choose the (nearly identical) Ford Focus if it were substantially lower priced.

The only GM line I will never buy again is Buick (although I'll grant lemons do exist). The rest of the line have been superior workhorses for me.
I'm not inclined to buy a foreign brand although most are now being manufactured locally. I haven't owned a Chrysler/Dodge or a Lincoln/Ford as AMC/Rambler was my early choice. If I were in a position to purchase a new car, during the 'employee pricing' would be a good time. But aren't they significantly cutting into their profits?
Why is it the 'foreign' cars don't need to be discounted like this? Have we all decided American is wrong? We only buy American when we get big discounts?

 

[wsuffa]

But aren't they significantly cutting into their profits?
Why is it the 'foreign' cars don't need to be discounted like this? Have we all decided American is wrong? We only buy American when we get big discounts?

Domestics haven't been making much money at all. Lots of inventory stocked up. Ergo, discount it and make whatever profit you can.

There is a perception of higher quality, more innovation, and better fuel mileage from "imports". The domestics lost the race back in the '70's when the Japanese focused on quality. GM, et al, though people would buy their produce when the Japanese ran circles around them in quality. Folks are not stupid.

I will admit that domestic quality has substantially improved. But the corporations are still inefficient, and there is still a perception of lower quality. Funny, folks will buy a Saab (owned by GM) before they buy a domestic product. Mazda (owned by Ford) is perceived better than Ford.

Folks haven't decided that buying American is wrong, they've decided that the "imports" provide better value and/or quality. My last two Nissans have gone well over 100,000 miles without major problems. I can't say that for the domestics I used to own.

 

[Iceman]

Bill I'm not trying to pick on you...

Domestics haven't been making much money at all. Lots of inventory stocked up. Ergo, discount it and make whatever profit you can.

This is not true. GM cars/trucks have been selling fine for the past few years. The perceived inventory stock up is because GM is trying to make as many cars as it possibly can. The reason is because they are losing lots of money right now because of the FAT/PHAT union contracts they are bound by. They now have two retirees to support for every worker in their company. With the rising health/dental/etc care it is costing them millions and millions. To make maters worse it is almost impossible to lay someone off because they get almost 90% of their pay for the next year. This IS a problem with unions vs GM right now and it is killing the company. Foreign companies have no union powers so every employee works his/her tail off to make the best car possible, hence a higher quality final product to a degree.

There is a perception of higher quality, more innovation, and better fuel mileage from "imports". The domestics lost the race back in the '70's when the Japanese focused on quality. GM, et al, though people would buy their produce when the Japanese ran circles around them in quality. Folks are not stupid.

I'm not going to touch that. I could care less what a company produced 15+ years ago. They felt invincible and did not want to listen to customer wants/needs. Many would say that is the problem with the USA in general...not listening to anyone else.

Folks haven't decided that buying American is wrong, they've decided that the "imports" provide better value and/or quality. My last two Nissans have gone well over 100,000 miles without major problems. I can't say that for the domestics I used to own.

100,000 miles? I have never sold a car that had less than 180,000 and some I still own with over 250,000 miles on the clock. This is without f'n timing belt changes every 70k or tuneups. The only tuneup the cars get is when they stop working. (Conversion van 175k would not start- spark plugs had completely lost the electrode...new spark plugs problem solved). We are hard on cars (van has had a 6,000 lb trailer behind it most of its life). I can not think of any domestic car owned during the past 5 years that would not go pas 250,000 miles. I have a new saturn with 55k nothing but oil and gas...no tires, no brakes, no service calls, nothing. A good friend has a new bmw X3...been in the shop 4 times with electrical problems and it only has 6k on it hmmmm.

Had a chrysler laser that I increased the power from 190 to over 360 hp. I raced that car every week and melted the brakes 3 times where the rotor had to be cut from the car with a circular saw and an abrasive blade. NOT any problems with the car besides going through a LOT of tires. I traded the car in with 187k because the turbo was starting to go and I wanted something new but the car was still solid as a rock (yes I know it had a DSM motor on it).

LOTS of good cars out there right now...domestic and import!

 

[Missa]

Well, that's certainly true, however, it's like that whenever you start selling a new product, isn't it? The cost of development spread over only a few units makes each unit cost more. They can hope that their new technology catches on in popularity so they can sell more units and they eventually start making a profit.

It's not the cost of development, it's the cost of the additional components. when you put an extra electric motor, the controlers the wiring and the batteries into the car + all the standard things it just plane costs more. The batteries alone in a hybrid cost more then the hybrid preimum.

Missa

 

[Everskyward]

It's not the cost of development, it's the cost of the additional components.

Then I don't understand Toyota's logic. Or maybe they're being subsidized by their own government. I can't imagine a company being that altruistic without any hope of reward now or in the future.

This is why I stay as far away from the business end of things as I can!

 

[mgkdrgn]

My one owner (ie, ME) 1989 Ford Probe GT gets 25mpg in daily commuter use ... and as of now I have 12 years of car payment free driving. No hybrid for me, thank you. I can buy a LOT of gas for the price of a car payment.

Hmmm.

Me, I'm in the same boat as Greg. I have a 4 year old paid for F-150 Supercrew with only 33kmi on it. So, free driving for a good number of years car payment and repairs wise.

 

[Missa]

Then I don't understand Toyota's logic. Or maybe they're being subsidized by their own government. I can't imagine a company being that altruistic without any hope of reward now or in the future.

This is why I stay as far away from the business end of things as I can!

Now, you are getting into the govm't regulations of things like fleet average fuel efficiency and the PR for having a hybrid on the market. On most small cars the auto companies shoot for a breakeven or minor profit. They sell them because they have to maintain a fleet average fuel efficiency number for the US Government and they want to sell the big SUV's and Trucks which is where lots of money can be made. By having a vehicle that is a hybrid has a lot of PR usage and contributes significantly to the fleet average fuel efficiency. But again, this is why the Pruis and other hybrid have such a limited run that makes them hard to get. It's that the companies can only make so many of them at a loss.

Missa

 

[silver-eagle]

...SNIP... They sell them because they have to maintain a fleet average fuel efficiency number for the US Government and they want to sell the big SUV's and Trucks which is where lots of money can be made.
...SNIP...

The FLEET rule goes out the window in 2007(?). Each vehicle will be required to maintain a certain average based on type. SUVs, if I recall, will be somewhere in the 20 mile a gallon range. That should be a good trick for a HUMMER.
Now, if the Segway got more than 10 miles on a charge, it might be the answer.

 

[Missa]

The FLEET rule goes out the window in 2007(?). Each vehicle will be required to maintain a certain average based on type. SUVs, if I recall, will be somewhere in the 20 mile a gallon range. That should be a good trick for a HUMMER.
Now, if the Segway got more than 10 miles on a charge, it might be the answer.

Ah, But by type still would have the same effect the Excursion **** poor fuel ecopnomy can still be off set by the Hybrid Escape's high fuel economy. Which explaines why all the small SUV's are now going hybrid... that and they have more room for the Batt's then small cars.

And a Segway is almost as fun to ride as a citibra is to fly... It was truely funny when this guy I worked with tried it and was still shakey at the end his 10 min turn, I hopped on and had it licked after about a min.

Missa

 

[PoAdeleted5]

deleted.

 

[SCCutler]

FWIW, livery operators routinely put over 500,000 miles on Lincoln Town Cars with nothing more than oil changes, brakes and tires. The car service I use here in Dallas once picked me up in a Town Car which had over 450,000 miles on it, still quiet, tight and comfortable. The interior had held up well, too.

I have a Cadillac deville which seems, after four years of hard-as driving (I am always trying to reach rotation speed!), to be doing quite nicely. It s as fast as stink, quiet as a church and gets highway mileage of 25 mpg at 80 mph.

Dealer service has been by far the best service from any auto dealer I have ever encountered, almost smothering me with care, concern and consideration. Also have been reasonable in cost.

My wife drives a VW Jetta (built in Mexico, by the way), it's a hoot, fast (turbo), fun and tight. Build quality seems excellent, service has been good from that dealer as well.

Both the Caddy shop and the VW shop give us free loan cars when ours is in their shop.

 

[Bill]

FWIW, livery operators routinely put over 500,000 miles on Lincoln Town Cars with nothing more than oil changes, brakes and tires. The car service I use here in Dallas once picked me up in a Town Car which had over 450,000 miles on it, still quiet, tight and comfortable. The interior had held up well, too.

That is why we went with the Crown Vic. Basically same car, 80% of the goodness of a Lincoln, 50% price. The only areas the Lincoln is better is styling, interior materials, and additional sound proofing. Underneath, they use the same engines, tranny, chassis, suspension, etc.

 

[Henning]

Missa, do you think oil technology has remaind static over the last 50 or 60 years? I think not. While that may have been true in the 40s and 50s, I don't think that study has any validity today.

I do. The experiments are still ongoing in the feild. My 97 Dodge Ram with the Cummins, Filter every 20,000, oil every 100,000. The guy who bought it from me contacted me that due to an accidental tearing of the oil pan on a rock at 285,000 miles they ended up opening the bottom end of the motor up, he said everything looked good, no sludge and all the bearings plasti-gauged out fine and looked good. BTW, the engine always got Rotella T 15-40 and either Wix or Baldwin filters. There's a tug company on the Mississippi that Never changes the oil in their 20-645-E7 EMDs putting out 3600hp. Just filters and analysis for addatives. Oil technology has improved, as has fuel technology. Better fuel addatives, no lead and no/low sulfer fuels as well as hotter running engines helps oil stay uncontaminated much longer.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I agree!!! I'm so tired of people discounting American made goods. I spend a lot of time on the race track and have seen A LOT more BMW's, Porsche's, MB break down more often than American made cars. These cars are driven hard and if there is a weak link in any components they will turn up at the track.

Well, which is more American - My Honda built in Marysville, OH or your Ford built in Mexico? I have no qualms about buying "foreign" cars by Honda, Toyota, etc. as most of them are made here.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I do. The experiments are still ongoing in the feild. My 97 Dodge Ram with the Cummins, Filter every 20,000, oil every 100,000.

But that's a diesel... Whole different ballgame.

FWIW, for the last couple of companies I worked for, the service intervals were:

Caterpillar engine: 20K miles
Mercedes engine: 25K miles
Detroit Diesel engine: 30K miles
Cummins engine: 40K miles.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Having seen some reasearch from back in my g-pa's days of desiging cars and engines, changing your oil actually is worse for your engine then not changing your oil. (snip) In his time at GM tech they did some reasearch where they drove 3 vehicles, one vehicle's oil was changed every 5,000 miles, one where it was changes every 10,000 miles and one that was never changed. The third vehicle lasted the longest.

Huh.

I have a car which needs some repairs, but the repairs would cost more (to have a mechanic do them) than the car is really worth, and I don't have the time, knowledge, or all the proper tools to do it myself, so I'm trying to drive it into the ground.

It's a Honda, so it is REALLY not cooperating!!!

Maybe my "problem" is that I haven't changed the oil in probably 35,000 miles. I add a quart of synthetic 5W-30 maybe every 5th tank of gas or so, and it hasn't turned to sludge.

 

[gismo]

Huh.

I have a car which needs some repairs, but the repairs would cost more (to have a mechanic do them) than the car is really worth, and I don't have the time, knowledge, or all the proper tools to do it myself, so I'm trying to drive it into the ground.

It's a Honda, so it is REALLY not cooperating!!!

Maybe my "problem" is that I haven't changed the oil in probably 35,000 miles. I add a quart of synthetic 5W-30 maybe every 5th tank of gas or so, and it hasn't turned to sludge.

The detergents in todays motor oils seem to be a lot better than the stuff from 20-30 years ago WRT preventing sludge deposits. That said, the classic way to kill on older engine is to just keep adding oil as it burns off. Eventually the oil pan will be so well insulated that the oil has no way to cool.