Huh?

[EdFred]

In my banner towing days we would sometimes sell one-off tows (happy birthdays, will you marry me? etc) in remote locations where banner towing was not common. At that point I would have to get the map out and find a nearby airport to do the tow from. We would always call and ask. On rare occasions the response would be yeah no problem just come on in and do what you need to do. Banner towing is a perfectly legal part 91 operation but more often than not it took an act of congress, special dispensation from the pope and the promise of sexual favors to get airport managers to allow me to drive two hunks of PVC pipe into the grass next to the runway for a few hours and lay out a banner for pickup.

Public use means the public has access, period. It does not mean the public has access to come in and do whatever they want. Take a hibachi into an art museum so you can grill some burgers while you look at the paintings and see how it works out for you.

Both examples are apples and broccoli while comparing the the airport in question.

The transient student pilot (even with an instructor) is not making alterations or performing a commercial operation at the airport. And in your grilling at a museum attempt. Please. This museum is preventing only certain people from even entering the museum.

 

[flyingron]

I remember being in with the airport manager at Ocean City NJ and hearing him griping about guys dropping the banner next to the runway and taking out his lights.

Public use doesn't mean they have to allow all operations. AIT funding means they can't discriminate against certain things.

In general, the antidiscrimination statutes don't apply to all things in public accommodations, just certain things specifically protected by the statute. I don't have protections about walking through the Ritz Carlton wearing just a speedo.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Both examples are apples and broccoli while comparing the the airport in question.

The transient student pilot (even with an instructor) is not making alterations or performing a commercial operation at the airport.

So flight instruction is not a commercial operation? Good to know. Driving a couple poles a few inches into the grass make no alteration to the airport at all. None, nada, zip. The moment I'm gone, no one would be able to tell I was ever there.

This museum is preventing only certain people from even entering the museum.

True. They are preventing those who do not have pilot certificates from conducting operations there. But my BBQ in the museum example is no less related than your no ethnic/gay pilots example.

But this discussion is really kind of pedantic when you consider the bigger question which is how could they possibly enforce such a rule? So a solo student comes in, lands, taxis back and takes off and leaves. What does the airport do at that point? Let's say the student has a real big set of brass ones and comes in, lands, taxis in and shuts down, then walks into the office asks them to sign his logbook. What's the airport manager do at that point? Do they forbid the student to leave? Do they impound the aircraft? Under what authority exactly? They could probably try to fine the student I suppose. But other than that, I'm not sure what tools they have available for enforcement of such a rule.

 

[EdFred]

So flight instruction is not a commercial operation? Good to know. Driving a couple poles a few inches into the grass make no alteration to the airport at all. None, nada, zip. The moment I'm gone, no one would be able to tell I was ever there.


True. They are preventing those who do not have pilot certificates from conducting operations there. But my BBQ in the museum example is no less related than your no ethnic/gay pilots example.

Correct, flight Instruction isn't considered a commercial operation.

Poles in the ground is an alteration even if it is temporary.

What is the student doing different than a private/commercial/ATP when flying in there? Nothing. They are performing a landing, and taking off. Just like every other pilot. They aren't chem trail spraying. They aren't doing flour bomb drops. They are doing nothing different than any other pilot, which is why your grilling at the museum example is not applicable.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Poles in the ground is an alteration even if it is temporary.

Agree to disagree. Its no more of an alteration than if I park the plane and get out and stand there. Once I'm gone, there property is exactly the same as it was before I was there.

They are doing nothing different than any other pilot, which is why your grilling at the museum example is not applicable.

So I ask again, what power does the airport have to enforce such a rule? Not much as far as I can see. So if it makes them feel better to make their stupid unenforceable rule, then let 'em have at it.

Years ago I was doing an insurance check out in 172 at a new to me flight school. We flew into a local uncontrolled field. Wind was dead calm, no other traffic observed or heard in the pattern or moving on the ground, we came in to do a stop and go or two and decided to 31 because that made sense for the direction we were coming from. After I landed and taxied off, someone in the FBO came on the radio and reprimanded me because the airport was using 13 at that time. Its an uncontrolled field and I was the only traffic. My response was that I was unaware that this was a controlled airport. They replied its not a controlled airport but we're using 13. I said whose we? If you're gonna fly that desk you're sitting at, you're more than welcome to use 13 but I'm the only thing moving on this field right now and I'm using 31. Sometimes airport managers have an inflated sense of the reach of their power.

 

[Bob Noel]

devil's advocate here: drive some poles into the ground... I suppose all the underground cables/wires are clearly marked. And I suppose everyone has coordinated with the volunteer that is about to mow the grass...

 

[Juliet Hotel]

devil's advocate here: drive some poles into the ground... I suppose all the underground cables/wires are clearly marked. And I suppose everyone has coordinated with the volunteer that is about to mow the grass...

Oh ffs. Its a 12" hunk of 1-1/2" PVC pipe that gets pounded about 4" into the grass and a taller 1" piece of pipe gets slid into it. What underground cable am I going to hit that's 4" below the surface? And mowing the lawn? So the runway lights and signage they're fine with but put a piece of plastic pipe in front of them and suddenly they're unable to operate a mower safely? Please.

 

[EdFred]

So I ask again, what power does the airport have to enforce such a rule? Not much as far as I can see. So if it makes them feel better to make their stupid unenforceable rule, then let 'em have at it.

Years ago I was doing an insurance check out in 172 at a new to me flight school. We flew into a local uncontrolled field. Wind was dead calm, no other traffic observed or heard in the pattern or moving on the ground, we came in to do a stop and go or two and decided to 31 because that made sense for the direction we were coming from. After I landed and taxied off, someone in the FBO came on the radio and reprimanded me because the airport was using 13 at that time. Its an uncontrolled field and I was the only traffic. My response was that I was unaware that this was a controlled airport. They replied its not a controlled airport but we're using 13. I said whose we? If you're gonna fly that desk you're sitting at, you're more than welcome to use 13 but I'm the only thing moving on this field right now and I'm using 31. Sometimes airport managers have an inflated sense of the reach of their power.

We agree on this. I've had similar encounters. It's like whatever man.

I should call the airport manager and ask him what they would do if I brought a student in there?

 

[Bob Noel]

Oh ffs. Its a 12" hunk of 1-1/2" PVC pipe that gets pounded about 4" into the grass and a taller 1" piece of pipe gets slid into it. What underground cable am I going to hit that's 4" below the surface? And mowing the lawn? So the runway lights and signage they're fine with but put a piece of plastic pipe in front of them and suddenly they're unable to operate a mower safely? Please.

your considerate attitude is duly noted.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

your considerate attitude is duly noted.

When I was doing that gig, getting the banners flown so we could get paid was my job. I always called ahead and cleared it with the airport authority before I showed up. I never just showed up and started planting poles in the ground. I probably should have, easier to ask for forgiveness and all that. Plus in most cases, I would have gotten in and out and gone before anyone ever knew I was there. But I never did it that way. If trying to get my job done makes me inconsiderate, then I guess I'm inconsiderate.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I should call the airport manager and ask him what they would do if I brought a student in there?

I wouldn't ask you to do that, but I wouldn't stand in your way if you were bored and wanted to rattle someone's cage a bit.

 

[brcase]

heck, how long would it take to remove the spinner, cut the safety wire, remove the prop bolts, slide the prop lock off, reinsall the prop bolts and go?

(a thief might not care about the safety wire and the spinner isn't required... at least on my cherokee it wasn't)

We had a prop removed from a plane tied down at our airport. Owner came out and found battery and the prop missing.

 

[wsuffa]

If you dig into their web site, some of the restrictions are to avoid noise issues (e.g. noise abatement). Others are due to the coast guard air station - they're on the edge of the Class D.

Given where they are, I have no doubt about the neighbors and NIMBYs with respect to noise.