Hudson river SFRA

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Meanee, Aug 17, 2012.

  1. Meanee

    Meanee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meanee
    So,

    Looks like next Wednesday, I will try my luck with Hudson SFRA. I took a course on faasafety.gov, passed the test (15/15), but was unable to print my certificate. It's a zero byte PDF file. Guess one of the cogs is jammed in the web server.

    So, here's the plan. I want to enter SFRA at Verrazano bridge, and fly at around 900' past Intrepid. Around that, I will make a U-turn and fly back south and exit around Verrazano Bridge.

    If anyone familiar with that SFRA, do you have additional tips? I am planning to have 2 people with me and they will keep on a lookout for traffic.
     
  2. MassPilot

    MassPilot Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,093
    Location:
    Melbourne, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FloridaPilot
    I'd like to do this in the near future. Have you considered trying to get a Bravo clearance from EWR tower instead and flying the route at 1500 to 2000 feet? Besides the benefits of having ATC keep you separated from other traffic, I'd imagine that the view is nicer.
     
  3. Meanee

    Meanee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meanee

    Skyline route will have you fly the entire length of the route. I want to make a U-turn around Intrepid. Reason being, I will have the plane for a limited time, and I would not want to cut it too close by flying all the way north. But it's one of my thoughts to monitor 123.05 about 15 miles out to see how bad the traffic is. If a lot of people are flying, I will attempt to get Skyline route. And if I do, it would be my first Class B operation!
     
  4. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    Negative ghost rider! Do not U-turn at the Intrepid! Fly up past the Alpine tower, scan for traffic, announce your U-turn and go for it.

    I've flown the SFRA as well as the skyline route many times. Keep your head on a swivel and maintain altitude discipline at all times! Have fun and enjoy. It's really an awesome adventure:)
     
  5. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    Study the SFRA again. You'll see that it's entry and exit points are the VZ AND the Alpine tower. With mandatory reporting points in between.
     
  6. Meanee

    Meanee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meanee
    Are you sure about that?

    The training said that airspace between the deck and up to (not including) 1000' MSL allows "local operation" meaning, takeoffs, landings, turns, etc. 1000 to 1299' is for transient. Anything higher up is skyline.
     
  7. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    You're right, I never do local because I don't feel safe down that low with the tour choppers. I stand corrected. My flights are either transient or Skyline Route in the Bravo.

    Just be extra vigilant down that low!!!
     
  8. MassPilot

    MassPilot Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,093
    Location:
    Melbourne, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FloridaPilot
    I've heard of pilots getting cleared to fly up the East River and turn west at Central Park. Midtown Manhattan off your left wing must be a mind-blowing view! Maybe they'd let you turn south onto the Hudson from there. I bet a phone call to EWR and/or LGA tower before you depart could get you an answer. Just a thought.
     
  9. Meanee

    Meanee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meanee
    Thanks for tip. I am actually considering just one way trip. I am departing KXLL, will fly to VZ, request skyline, exit at alpine tower, and head back to the field. Will be 1 pass, and I guess I should start getting some experience with busy tower and class B operations.
     
  10. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    The view is really great either way. The additional benefit of ATC was a plus when I first started flying the Hudson after my ten year hiatus from flying. There were some changes made and I felt safer.

    The Hudson scenic flight was my Intro flight in 1998, a few months before starting flight lessons at KTEB!


    The other benefit is, that is the only choice if you want to do the East River. Really cool to fly over Central Park and back out to the Hudson!
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
  11. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    Absolutely! They were very accommodating. No problem at all but it all depends on what runways they're using at LGA. The first time I did it, I was surprised how smoothly everything went.

    I called up LGA from the north. I was at the Tappan Zee and they told me to call back when I get closer to the Alpine Tower because they didn't have me on radar yet:)

    Near the Alpine Tower, I called and they cleared me into the Bravo and told me to climb and maintain 1500 over the GWB. At some point they handed me off to EWR. They asked my intentions and I said VZ then East river to cross at Central Park.

    Past VZ, made u-turn and headed north. Upon reaching Governors Island, EWR hands you back off to LGA for the East River. LGA told me to cross Central Park at the "five-nine" bridge which gave me a brief moment of confusion the first time I heard that:lol:

    I asked him to repeat, he said are you familiar with the 59th street bridge? I affirmed and laughed to myself because of my brief moment of :dunno:
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2012
  12. n12365

    n12365 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Charleston, IL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    I have flown the SFRA several times and I wouldn't turn around over the Hudson river. The river is less than a mile wide, even less where the docks stick out into the river near the Intrepid, and there is a lot of helicopter traffic below 1,000 feet. I would also be hesitant to request a clearance through the bravo if you have never transitioned a bravo before. The entire area is a high workload environment and turning around or transitioning the bravo makes it even higher. If this is your first time, I would recommend flying the entire length of the SFRA south to north at 1,100 while making all of your mandatory reports, then turn around and do the reverse.

    But if you want to jump into the deep end of the pool, I normally fly the Hudson northbound, turn around and get a clearance into the bravo southbound, central park to the east river southbound, circle the statue of liberty, then south to exit the SFRA. Depending on the wind and the runway configuration in use at LaGuardia, you might not be able to do all of that.

    Ryan
     
  13. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    Ryan, I agree with most of what you said except that part. No need to be hesitant or afraid to request the Bravo clearance! Hey you gotta start at some point...might as well be now. Just think about what you want to say before you key the mic.

    Request the "skyline route northbound or southbound" and listen for a squawk code and the magic words.... "cleared into the bravo, climb and maintain xxxx feet. :D

    If they say remain clear, then fly the exclusion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2012
  14. Meanee

    Meanee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meanee
    That's one of the reasons why I am thinking of doing it. I flown solo to Class C bunch of times even before my checkride, but for some reason, Class B scares me. Since I am not asking a complex routing or anything, I figured this would be a good start.
     
  15. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    It's just like most things in aviation, once you do it, it becomes less fearful:D

    A few months ago, I flew from Republic to Mt. Pocono and I only requested flight following. To my surprise, the controller cleared me into the bravo direct. Flew right over LGA. I was prepared and expecting to fly around and below it:lol:

    The Bravo that is.
     
  16. Mike I

    Mike I Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    NYC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mike I
    Fixed wing is always 1000'-1299'. You're always a transient operation, as you're not going to be conducting takeoffs or landings in the area.

    I would also not conduct any turn between the Lady and the GWB. Just fly the length of it. Just north of the Intrepid is the Boat Basin, and there is a large concentration of helicopter traffic descending out of the Class B making a southbound turn from 1500' to 900' in that area.
    Here are the two standard helicopter tours, so you know where to look: http://www.erhc.org/forms/chx3Bnm023111.49.93.86.pdf

    It's my belief that anyone operating a fixed wing below 1000' in the SFRA isn't flying it correctly (though the SFRA radio call example from the FAA is "Cessna, GWB, 900 feet, southbound"....).
     
  17. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    Well have fun and enjoy your flight. I hope one of your passengers take pictures or video. My sig pic was taken by my sister this past spring. We were abeam central park southbound at 1200'. She took a few more including the Statue of Liberty. Then we flew along the south shore at 500' below the JFK bravo (in radio contact with JFK tower), back to Republic FRG.

    This was her first flight in a GA airplane. She really enjoyed seeing NYC from the air.
     
  18. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    Yes, the whole idea of local operation doesn't sound too safe to me either. Especially as a fixed wing mixing it up with all of the low flying choppers! That's also one of the reasons I've never dared circling the "lady":no:

    Not my cup of tea, unless I could find a day with no helicopter tours:lol:
    Circling the lady is something I'd like to do....one day! Must be cool to follow the path of Wilbur Wright! I think he was at 200 or 300ft. I was awestruck the first time I saw the black & white picture on the Internet!
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2012
  19. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    New York City
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skip Miller
    Just make sure the PIC is paying attention to his job. The sightseeing is spectacular but someone needs to be paying attention to flying. Don't be a Cory Lidle!

    -Skip
     
  20. rottydaddy

    rottydaddy En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,477
    Location:
    Newark, NJ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    beaky
    Amen... and watch out for the helicopters.

    If you must turn around halfway (why not fly the whole thing?), be sure to look several times and announce the turn before you execute (give any conflicting traffic a moment to respond).
    Then look again before you turn... up and down as well as left and right. :wink2:
     
  21. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    5,347
    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad Z
    As far as class bravos go, the skyline route is pretty simple. The controllers are working from the LGA and EWR tower cabs, and are only talking to small planes flying up and down the river. No fast-talking NY approach controllers working a 100 planes at once.

    Call them up, tell them what you want to do, and they'll point out traffic to you. I find it much less stressfully than flying down low. I suspect they won't have a problem with you reversing at GW bridge...that's only a few minutes further north from Intrepid. You really don't want to be down low with the helicopters.
     
  22. mrindian

    mrindian Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    67
    Location:
    Riverside, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gary
    I just flew the Hudson Last Monday 8/13
    I had just purchased a T6 Texan in Boston, and we were on the start of our long cross country to So Cal.

    We decided that we had to fly the Hudson because we wouldn't have another change to do it in a T6 anytime soon.

    It was easy - just follow the instructions - getting Bravo clearance is easy if you decide to do that.

    We even circled the SOL and had a great time!

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Gary
     
  23. AuntPeggy

    AuntPeggy Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    8,491
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Namaste
    That exclusion was suggested by the helicopter operators and rejected by the FAA. Fixed wing and helicopters are both within the surface to 1000' area. The local operation corridor is there for all sorts of sight-seeing aircraft.

    The transient operation corridor is specifically intended for those aircraft that are not there for sight-seeing and who only want a shortcut along the Hudson from Verazano to Alpine Tower. If using the 1000' to 1299' corridor, do not turn inside the route anywhere between those two points.

    "Transient" and "Local" do not conform to the traditional definitions used by an FBO. The corridor is not an FBO. The reason that the example uses "Cessna, GWB, 900 feet, southbound" is to make that distinction quite clear.


    * Transient operation: Aircraft transiting the Hudson River Exclusion from end to end without intending to signicantly change heading, altitude, or airspeed.
    ** Local operation: Any aircraft within the Hudson River Exclusion that is conducting an operation other than overflying.

    https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/courses/content/79/776/kneeboard.pdf
     
  24. Meanee

    Meanee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meanee
    I spoke to my CFI and his friend who are flying in that place. They said that typically if they have to do a U-turn, they maintain 900' entering and turning to stay out of transient corridor. But they cautioned me that it's VERY crowded there. You need to look all over and have your pax do the same. They suggested that I stay in a transient corridor all the way to Alpine tower. I may do that, or simply take a skyline route and climb higher.
     
  25. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    Very good advice IMHO.

    I'm a chicken that's why I don't play chicken with the choppers down that low:rofl:
     
  26. redtail

    redtail En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,406
    Location:
    93 million miles from the sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Redtail
    Your see-and-avoid workload will be at it's highest level ever in the SFRA, Transient as well as Skyline Route (Bravo). Why add more stress to yourself down in the "local" airspace making U-turns?

    Maybe if I were flying something that didn't have blind spots when I bank, I'd consider it but IMO, it's just not worth it!
     
  27. Meanee

    Meanee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meanee
    So just came back from the airport.

    Flew from KXLL to Verrazano bridge. Asked Newark for Skyline route. They could not get a mode C readout on my transponder. Recycled it, and all good. Cleared to enter Bravo, got 1500 altitude.

    What I didn't expect is handoff to LGA, then to NY Approach, then to another NY approach frequency. To be quite honest, if I knew it would happen this way, I would probably just stay at transient route and that's it. And I do believe my fear of Bravo is gone. It's just like a bigger C. And controllers are very accommodating.

    Nothing without mistakes and few "WTF" moments. Exiting Bravo, Approach did not terminate radar services. They asked for my route of flight. I didn't expect that. I thought it would be "You left Bravo, radar services terminated, squawk VFR". Since I had it pre-planned, I told them Sparta, Broadway VORs, and then KXLL. After I reached Sparta VOR, I told them that I want to turn to Broadway. They told me that they tried to switch me to a different frequency few times and I didn't respond. Oops. So anyway, I cancelled radar service myself and went back to XLL.

    So, learned few things. Showed a friend the city from a whole new vantage point. All is good.
     
  28. Anymouse

    Anymouse En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    3,164
    Location:
    Clinton, AR (Sometimes)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Total Stud Bush Pilot
    That's ATC speak for "Dude! I totally forgot about you. My bad! Switch to frequency xxx.xx, good day."


    :D